Parallel Universe?

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I know there have been many discussions and fics surrounding this episode but there's a take I don't think I've seen yet.

We've looked at Deb and Arlene, and the idea of a female version of Rimmer, but has anyone ever seen anything addressing how our Lister and Rimmer, more or less unchanged, would have fared if they'd come from the female oriented society as portrayed in the episode?

Would Rimmer be less career-focused or more so because he'd be fighting sexism to get where he wants to be? Would he stop blaming his failings on his background and start blaming them on his gender?

And what about Lister? He was raised by a strong woman, so would his outlook really be that different? Would he have insecurities about women only wanting him for his huge penis because he's been brought up in a society that's taught him that he has no other real value? Would either, or both of them, feel strongly about man's rights or is it something they'd argue about? Would Rimmer criticise Lister's desire to meet someone and have babies for example? Or with the pressure to achieve taken away from him, would Lister actually be more motivated to be more than 'just a boy?'

Discuss...

Comments

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Rimmer tends to be very worried about living up to other people's standards of who he should be, so I could see that applying to gender expectations. Less "Oh no, my career isn't impressive enough and I can't get laid!" and more "Oh no, I'm not attractive enough and I can't land a wife!" Probably latch onto some rigid standard of what it meant to be Good Husband Material, taking no account of his actual talents or preferences or body type, and try to force himself to adhere to it. (Like how in the novels, it's suggested he has some real potential when it comes to artistic talent, but he's so set on being an officer he only pursues what doesn't suit him.) Maybe try to seem like he's Good With Kids when he isn't? He might complain more about discrimination - he did after waking up as a hologram.

For Lister, it's a question whether he'd be motivated to defy society or not. Wanting to meet someone and have kids, while having little or no career motivation, would probably get him pegged not as a slacker but as a househusband, with a different set of stereotypes. I could see him getting into some argument where he wants a lot of what stereotypical men were supposed to want, but didn't want men to be trapped into that rule, and people kept trying to hold him up as an example. ("Men aren't being discriminated against, they're just making different choices. They're naturally more nurturing and domestic. Look at you!")

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Of course, a lot depends on exactly how gender roles and expectations are different in the other universe, which the ep itself is pretty vague on. We know that men now have the babies and are more objectified than women, but we're told less about where they stand in other areas.

For example, do traditionally 'male' occupations now belong to women, or are they still considered male but are less valued? To use a very general example, are the men now secretaries, or are female secretaries now getting more money/respect for what they do?

It puts a very interesting slant on Kochanski breaking up with Lister to go back to her chef boyfriend Tim either way. Does she go back to Tim because she wants a more traditional man who knows 'his place is in the kitchen', or is it because she admires his drive and ambition to succeed in a female-dominated field and thinks Lister is too unambitious/old-fashioned?

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, historically men used to be secretaries in our world, back when that was considered a valuable first step for a young man to learn the complex administration of an organization and work closely with powerful people before moving up the ladder. The job becoming female-dominated coincided with the devaluing of it and the lack of advancement opportunities.

I think there'd be a lot of dividing tasks so that if there was more power and advancement potential, it would be female-dominated, and if there was more routine and less of a ladder to climb, it would be seen as men's work? Like in our world, cooking is seen as women's work, but being a chef is seen as a man's role, because that involves more authority over other people.

I suspect one big difference would be that men would still average bigger and stronger (although possibly not by as much), and so purely physical work would be devalued as mere men's work, which men would be expected to do around the house for no money, eve if they already had a job. And physical muscle-based jobs might get "Oh, that's cute!" and lower pay?

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I suppose as well that in Lister and Rimmer's era there would be much less call for 'muscle' jobs, as most physically strenuous tasks would be done by automated machines or mechanoids- further reducing men's societal worth.

It also raises some uncomfortable questions about sexual politics. If men are still, on the whole, bigger and stronger then how do women keep them under control? Can you imagine tumblr threads full of men spitting vitriol about the bitches who use and oppress them? In our society that's a frightening thought, but in theirs it would be valid. How would a matriarchal society deal with that anger?

I wonder would Lister and Rimmer still be technicians, or if engineering/repair would be seen as too complex for men, or if at their level it would still be seen more as menial. Part of me really likes the idea of secretary! Lister with a Moneypenny-esque crush on his boss Kochanski (who of course uses him and breaks his heart).

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

I know in bonobo societies, alliances of female bonobos keep males under control, because it's understood that if a male breaks the social rules, all the female bonobos would join against them. Throw in even basic technology, plus the added male vulnerability caused by pregnancy, and you could come up with a female-dominated society where individual male size advantages ended up pretty useless.

But yeah, in that universe, anger and violence would probably be a big feature of men advocating for rights, and I could see men being stereotyped as too dangerous and violent, therefore in need of being controlled by women, so anger would be used to invalidate every complaint.

I suspect, given the time period, men would occasionally be allowed to get technician jobs, but the field would be pretty female-dominated. I could see Lister being a secretary. (If Rimmer was still trying to do the astronavigation exam, in a society where he'd have to face "Well, men just don't have the same aptitude for math and science" on top of him individually actually not having the aptitude, that would create even more issues.)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Another thought, particularly relevant to this community, if in our society gay men are often derided for being 'effeminate' how would attitudes be different in the parallel universe? Would the same behaviours still be considered feminine, with the same connotations?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

This is giving me a headache, but I think that gay men would be considered by the less enlightened as trying to "imitate" straight women, complete with the usual insinuations that they couldn't really hope to satisfy men as a woman would.

This would obviously mean the devaluation of the penis to the status of vaginas in our society whereas lesbians might be envied for not having to deal with those unreasonable men and their violent tendencies (as opposed to stereotypical "female" tendencies to cry and be hysterical etc).

All assuming that everything is a straightforward reversal of our society, of course, which is a big assumption.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Of course, if men have the babies in this universe, do they also have periods and PMS???

Also, maybe besides the point, but my firm headcanon is that in this universe the 'missionary' position means woman on top :-)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

This is fascinating to ponder but also depressing. I imagine that Lister's early loss of his virginity to Michelle Fisher would be looked at very differently by his peers i.e. he'd be labelled "easy" rather than cool for his precocity. It also raises the issue of whether he might have got pregnant at an early age but if we assume his Gran still brings him up then she would presumably give him a lecture about safe sex and a supply of condoms. I like to think that his self-esteem would survive the numerous people who'd try to slut-shame him - for want of a better word; I really don't like that one.

As for Rimmer, we know for a fact that his apparent lack of interest in sex would get him labelled "frigid" as Arlene actually calls him that. It raises fascinating questions about the dynamics in his household if we assume his mother is the one in charge. Presumably having given birth to four sons and no daughters, his father is stuck resentfully at home whilst his wife is going out to work and routinely cheating on him, perhaps impregnating other men?

Whether Rimmer would be more or less motivated to achieve career goals or follow the entirely different path of being a househusband, I don't know. I think it depends on his parents' attitude to women working and whether the lure of the Space Corps would overcome their sexism. It's possible that they would still pressurise their sons to get on in life in order to "make it up" to them for not having been born female. I've seen this attitude in some men who "only" have daughters and bring them up in their own image regardless.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Much like janamelie said, this is a fascinating idea to think about, but it's also making me a bit depressed. It's sad how just a tiny change in perspective, can put SO many issues into focus. We have SO far to go as far as equality and feminism goes.

I would be curious to see this explored in a fic. It would take a lot of thinking though, and really ironing out the social norms and conventions of the parallel universe. You know, I've never liked Parallel Universe all that much, but zolturate's art, coupled with this discussion have made me have a new appreciation for it. There's a lot of riches to be delved from exploring how a universe like that would actually be, beyond men being draped semi-nude over cars in magazines, and burning their jock-straps.