Rimmer And Yvonne McGruder

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

There's a thread on TOS about the morality of Rimmer sleeping with McGruder while she was suffering from concussion.  Personally I've always assumed that if she'd been discharged from the medibay then she was sufficiently "with it" to know what she was doing.  I also accepted the "Last Human" retcon which explains a lot more about what went on that night.  (Spoilers in the thread just in case anyone hasn't read it.)

But reading some of the points brought up in this thread makes me uncomfortable.  Wondering how others interpret it.

http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/forum/messages.cfm?threadid=B9128677-1999-AFED-B439706F293BF2EA

Sorry to bring up such an unsavoury topic, but it's something that clearly had a big impact on Rimmer and is referenced quite a lot in the series.

Comments

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Here's my take on it: Rape/sexual assault of any degree is about power, and I just don't see Rimmer as having any sort of power in that situation as it was depicted in (all versions of) canon. I get the point about her not being of sound mind, but I just can't see a way in which it could be argued that Rimmer took advantage of her.

IMO, it's very clearly written as her being in control of the situation, and, again IMO, I've actually always felt there was an implication of HIM being assaulted by HER. Now, Rimmer's sexual orientation is obviously not confirmed in canon (yet!) but if you read him as homosexual, that puts an entirely different spin on the situation too.

Just my two pennycents!

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I realized I left out some stuff that I consider self-evident due to my reading of Rimmer's character, which I should probably specify. :p

What I mean by I just can't see a way in which it could be argued that Rimmer took advantage of her, is that Rimmer, as I see him, is not exactly a pro-active person. Furthermore, he is a self-proclaimed, proven coward, and he is incredibly inexperienced. For this and other reasons, I just don't see him, certainly not at that point in his life, as an aggressor in a sexual situation*, even in one in which the other person is incapacitated, which I don't think McGrueder was.

Hence, it's pretty obvious to my mind that he's trying to frame the encouter as a sexual conquest to Lister, and therefore frames himself as an aggressor, but the situation as described in Last Human - and possibly elsewhere; I seem to remember it being mentioned several times in the books - is really what I always imagined; her as the aggressor.

That said, a lot is obviously hanging on what actually happened, which, in TV-canon... we just don't know. The above is what I've always thought, but hey; I could be entirely wrong!


*rape is not, of course, sex, but I'm arguing that what happened wasn't rape.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I agree that if we interpret Rimmer as a closeted gay man as well as a very naive virgin at the time of the McGruder encounter, it's difficult to imagine him being the one to initiate things. It's also in character for him to subsequently exaggerate his role in events.

Lister probably finds it hard to believe that anyone could be genuinely attracted to Rimmer at this stage of the series - the initial discussion is in Series 1's "Confidence And Paranoia", before the writers started to soften Rimmer a bit.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Rape/sexual assault of any degree is about power, and I just don't see Rimmer as having any sort of power in that situation as it was depicted in (all versions of) canon.

I'm a bit confused by this. Being alone in the room with a woman who's deeply confused due to a head injury seems like it'd be enough power that he'd be able to rape her if he chose to.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

See my comment, erm, to my comment, above. I realized just after I posted that first comment that with any other person, the point you're making here would be correct. But this is Rimmer, and, well. My interpretation, of course!

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

So him doing that doesn't fit with your interpretation of the character? That makes sense.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yep, that's what I was trying to say. And the extent to which I believe that is underlined by the fact that I didn't even think it would require explanation! Then I went, "no, hang on..." Oh, Rimmer...

[erinptah]

The determining factor in "is this rape?" is whether there was meaningful consent from both parties, regardless of what kind of power dynamics were going on. If you have sex with someone who's too out-of-it to know what they're doing, that's definitely taking advantage of them.

That said, I appreciate your point about how she'd been discharged, and the Last Human information does fit with what we got on TV -- a couple of offhand remarks from two characters long after the fact, both of whom have reason to exaggerate and warp the details. It's not unrealistic to take all of that and think "McGruder knew what she was doing, Rimmer's fudging the facts to make himself look more ~manly~, and Lister's assuming the worst because that lets him make fun of Rimmer."

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

By "about power" I was trying to point out that rape isn't about sex, not that power dynamics implies anything about consent. Should have made that clear!

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I've found the relevant section in "Last Human" and it does cast a much nicer light on proceedings, as Seb P points out.

It's unfortunate that a lot more people have seen the show than read the books, because Doug came up with a pretty good reinterpretation. It's almost like fanfic, but canon.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

As I mentioned above, the book canon version was pretty much how I imagined it originally, except I imagined Yvonne as much more callous. :p