Red Dwarf Slash

Here's my take on it: Rape/sexual assault of any degree is about power, and I just don't see Rimmer as having any sort of power in that situation as it was depicted in (all versions of) canon. I get the point about her not being of sound mind, but I just can't see a way in which it could be argued that Rimmer took advantage of her.

IMO, it's very clearly written as her being in control of the situation, and, again IMO, I've actually always felt there was an implication of HIM being assaulted by HER. Now, Rimmer's sexual orientation is obviously not confirmed in canon (yet!) but if you read him as homosexual, that puts an entirely different spin on the situation too.

Just my two pennycents!

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I realized I left out some stuff that I consider self-evident due to my reading of Rimmer's character, which I should probably specify. :p

What I mean by I just can't see a way in which it could be argued that Rimmer took advantage of her, is that Rimmer, as I see him, is not exactly a pro-active person. Furthermore, he is a self-proclaimed, proven coward, and he is incredibly inexperienced. For this and other reasons, I just don't see him, certainly not at that point in his life, as an aggressor in a sexual situation*, even in one in which the other person is incapacitated, which I don't think McGrueder was.

Hence, it's pretty obvious to my mind that he's trying to frame the encouter as a sexual conquest to Lister, and therefore frames himself as an aggressor, but the situation as described in Last Human - and possibly elsewhere; I seem to remember it being mentioned several times in the books - is really what I always imagined; her as the aggressor.

That said, a lot is obviously hanging on what actually happened, which, in TV-canon... we just don't know. The above is what I've always thought, but hey; I could be entirely wrong!

*rape is not, of course, sex, but I'm arguing that what happened wasn't rape.

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I agree that if we interpret Rimmer as a closeted gay man as well as a very naive virgin at the time of the McGruder encounter, it's difficult to imagine him being the one to initiate things. It's also in character for him to subsequently exaggerate his role in events.

Lister probably finds it hard to believe that anyone could be genuinely attracted to Rimmer at this stage of the series - the initial discussion is in Series 1's "Confidence And Paranoia", before the writers started to soften Rimmer a bit.

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Rape/sexual assault of any degree is about power, and I just don't see Rimmer as having any sort of power in that situation as it was depicted in (all versions of) canon.

I'm a bit confused by this. Being alone in the room with a woman who's deeply confused due to a head injury seems like it'd be enough power that he'd be able to rape her if he chose to.

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See my comment, erm, to my comment, above. I realized just after I posted that first comment that with any other person, the point you're making here would be correct. But this is Rimmer, and, well. My interpretation, of course!

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So him doing that doesn't fit with your interpretation of the character? That makes sense.

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Yep, that's what I was trying to say. And the extent to which I believe that is underlined by the fact that I didn't even think it would require explanation! Then I went, "no, hang on..." Oh, Rimmer...

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erinptah

The determining factor in "is this rape?" is whether there was meaningful consent from both parties, regardless of what kind of power dynamics were going on. If you have sex with someone who's too out-of-it to know what they're doing, that's definitely taking advantage of them.

That said, I appreciate your point about how she'd been discharged, and the Last Human information does fit with what we got on TV -- a couple of offhand remarks from two characters long after the fact, both of whom have reason to exaggerate and warp the details. It's not unrealistic to take all of that and think "McGruder knew what she was doing, Rimmer's fudging the facts to make himself look more ~manly~, and Lister's assuming the worst because that lets him make fun of Rimmer."

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By "about power" I was trying to point out that rape isn't about sex, not that power dynamics implies anything about consent. Should have made that clear!

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I've found the relevant section in "Last Human" and it does cast a much nicer light on proceedings, as Seb P points out.

It's unfortunate that a lot more people have seen the show than read the books, because Doug came up with a pretty good reinterpretation. It's almost like fanfic, but canon.

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As I mentioned above, the book canon version was pretty much how I imagined it originally, except I imagined Yvonne as much more callous. :p

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I think we have limited information on what happened and it's extremely open to interpretation. It could be interpreted as a rape, and I think that's actually the most obvious and straightforward interpretation if you don't take the novels into account. (If she was too impaired to know who she was having sex with, he knew that, and he chose to go through with it anyway, I'd call it rape.)

I don't think it's the only possible interpretation, especially considering the novels. You could, for instance, come up with a scenario where she was clearly willing and misspoke a few times when addressing Rimmer, and Lister exaggerated the whole thing for a joke, and I wouldn't call that rape. (The whole question of mental impairment and consent can be really tricky, especially without knowing the specifics. That's why the whole "How drunk is drunk" thing keeps coming up in terms of alcohol and consent.) And I want to interpret it that way, because I like Rimmer and I don't want him to be a rapist.

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It is very open to interpretation e.g. the fact that she (according to Lister) called him Norman doesn't necessarily mean she didn't know who he was. Maybe she knew him by sight and for some reason got it into her head that that was his name. Everyone assumed it was the concussion talking and didn't correct her out of politeness.

I also like Rimmer and don't want him to be a rapist. It's a shame that such ambiguous dialogue leaves room for doubt.

To Doug Naylor's credit, he obviously realised how dodgy the situation appeared and took steps to retcon it in "Last Human".

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I think they originally meant for Rimmer to be more awful, and gradually made him more sympathetic as things went on. So this was kind of like the "Did Rimmer kill everyone on the ship?" question - they originally wrote it to make him look pretty horrible, but then rewrote it so he'd be much more sympathetic.

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Yes, they realised he had to have more depth in order to be a viable long-term character.

I've had another thought - at least part of their encounter was public judging by Lister's "Norman" remark, so surely if there was any doubt about her ability to take care of herself, Lister and others wouldn't have left them alone in the first place.

The fact that they slept together seems to have become public knowledge, so presumably McGruder's roommate and friends would have raised hell if there'd been any suggestion that he took advantage of her mental state.

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Sometimes people do ignore that sort of thing, sadly. But Lister not only ignoring it all, but teasing Rimmer about it later means that either it was actually consensual and he was exaggerating her confusion, or he's a terrible person.

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Well, obviously I'm plumping for the former. Lister as I see him (and surely almost anyone else who's watched the series does) would never do that.

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veronica-rich.livejournal.com

While part of Rimmer certainly isn't above torture and/or rape (witness his Low self), he certainly seems to have thought it was "making love" from what he says while drunk and uninhibited in "Thanks for the Memory." If there was going to be a time he was going to think of it as an assault - in either direction - I would have sort of thought that'd be a time. So it's uncertain, but I don't think she was raped, or him.

Definitely if you go by the novels, it seems to have been consensual. Yvonne wanted him to call her back afterwards and he never did out of a misguided sense of "cool." She seemed to want her baby, and raised her son telling him what his real father's name was AND an idealized version of him, rather than what an asshole he was. And Rimmer was quick to praise her to Michael and take no credit for himself when the kid tried to latch onto him as a hero figure.

So - who knows? But I think it leans more toward the "non" side more than the "yep" side.

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Good point about "Memory" - Rimmer was drunk and feeling pathetic. If any part of him thought McGruder only slept with him because she was concussed and mistook him for someone else, surely it would have come up then.

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Well, it's Rimmer. The man has made repression into an art form. I'd say it's pretty obvious that he knows, deep inside, that McGruder only slept with him because she thought he was someone else, but he'd never admit that, even to himself. Even if he got himself drunk and had a long, heart-wrenching conversation with himself. :p

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That's a very good point about Rimmer's interpretation of events - I absolutely agree that he doesn't consider it an assault in either direction. (Which, of course, doesn't mean that it couldn't have been.)

The part about Yvonne wanting him to call her back and being all, IDK, interested, never sat right with me. I loved the fleshing out of the incident itself (it's exactly how I imagined it), but the rest of it just seemed like Naylor wanting to overcompensate, as it were. IDK.

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bayliss.livejournal.com

I guess I took it as Lister just taking the piss out of Rimmer. I didn't take what either of them said seriously. And until Doug writes something from McGrueder's POV we will never know the truth. I'd rather know why it only took 12minutes. They couldn't have fully undressed.

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We do get a little of her POV - page 213 of my paperback edition.

The 12 minute thing contributed to the fanon theory about Rimmer not lasting long. Plus "Holoship" of course.

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bayliss.livejournal.com

I guess on the telly is what I meant. The book is rather hard to find. What I don't fully understand, is why all of a sudden this is a big deal. Rimmer does have changing morals and most fans have that fact known.

I guess I still thought of it more as Rimmer embellishing it and Lister making it sound worse then it was. Frankly, what Ms Crane does to Rimmer is far worse. Essentially dragging him down a hall to her room.

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Tbh, I considered posting this on more than one occasion (whenever the thread was bumped) and didn't. It kept nagging away at me and I wanted to discuss it with others. I honestly don't think what happened was rape (in either direction) but reading that thread made me wonder.

With Nirvanah, firstly the dragging bit was deleted, so isn't seen on TV repeats. Secondly, the obvious physical difference between Rimmer and Nirvanah makes it hard to believe that she could force him to have sex. Persuade him, yes.

I always took his hesitation as nervousness because of his inexperience. Obviously if you see him as a repressed homosexual, there's that aspect as well.

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bayliss.livejournal.com

We also could question all consent. Since hormones play a large part in attraction and in sexual congress.

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You mean we're all, male and female, slaves to our biological impulses? Debatable, but I have to admit my monthly cycle does affect me more at some times than others.

Not that that would ever justify rape, obviously. There is no justification for that, ever.

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I firmly believe that the Rimmer/Nirvanah sex was consensual, but just wanted to chip in that differences in stature and physical strength doesn't rule out rape. You can force someone to have sex with you without doing so physically. (Using threats, a position of power, etc.)

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Sorry, I phrased that rather badly. Obviously rape can occur without physical force being used.

I should have made it clearer that I was referring to the specific incident in "Holoship", which I too interpret as clearly consensual, whether you "count" the deleted scene or not.

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jameta4all.livejournal.com

MANY SPOILERS FOR BOOKS AND TV.

Sexual assault is to touch someone with sexual implication, without their consent.
Rape is penile penetration without consent (note: legally speaking ciswomen are not capable of rape, only sexual assault).

Whether or not McGruder was capable of consent is arguable. Rape cases are often thrown out because the victim and/or accused were drunk, or under some kind of influence, or had a questionable capacity to understand the situation. For example, I read a case about a young man with autism who sexually assaulted his sister. Although the ACT was sexual assault, his capacity to understand his actions were questionable and he wasn't charged.

If McGruder was concussed and Rimmer was of sound mind, it would be rape. If Rimmer was drunk (but there's no evidence of that as he only mentioned eating pizza) then he raped her.

I'm speaking only in legal terms, and as I say, most cases are thrown out because it's such a grey issue.

But this isn't the only time the writers do this. Sex and sexual assault is treated quite flippantly on several occasions.

Lister is drugged and assaulted by a female Gelf (Last Human).
Rimmer is assaulted as a minor by his uncle (he thought Rimmer was his mother).
When Rimmer is given a female body (Better Than Life) he is abused verbally and physically by his associates (in defence, it was his own mind making it happen to teach him a lesson about misogyny) and then they attempt to pimp him out for work.

And I'm sure there are many more instances.

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erinptah

Technical note: While I don't know what jurisdiction you're coming from, the FBI's definition of rape (and therefore the legal definition in the United States) is "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

That's also closer to how support and advocacy organizations for victims/survivors have been defining it for years.

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laurenthemself

Yeah, what about every instance of the goddamned sexual magnetism virus being used? While I love the writers for their humour and clever writing, there have always been some seriously problematic as hell moments revolving around sex.

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The sexual magnetism virus is inherently dodgy. I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that Rimmer's exploits in "BITR" turn out to have been a hallucination.

As for the ending, my mind has always inserted an extra bit after the credits where the wardens step in and stop the attack on Rimmer. Fanon if you like.

A question for you as a mod - are we supposed to warn for spoilers when discussing the novels? The first one did come out over two decades ago. ;)

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laurenthemself

Being of stout frame myself, I'm still irritated that there was that air of 'ha ha, Rimmer had to shag a fatty', on top of everything else.

IIRC I had the wardens stop the attack on Rimmer when I was writing Floor 13, but that was ten years ago and if I go and look I'll probably want to rewrite it. Or obliterate its existence from the internet. But that's my headcanon as well.

No, you do not need to warn for spoilers when discussing the novels. If you want to say there's novel discussion so people who haven't read them can skip the entry, that's fine - I am totally pro people being that kind of polite. But the only thing we officially need spoiler warnings for are anything to do with RDX.

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veronica-rich.livejournal.com

Yeah, that was annoying (the fat thing). But to be fair, I was rewatching "Memory" the other night, and when Rimmer is drunk and honest, and Lister asks what he wants most, he's all "to have sex with a woman with thighs like a hippo's?" and seems pretty happy at the idea. Coupled with his book-canon love of looking at Renaissance naked women, I get the idea Rimmer might not have any problems with bigger ladies.

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Ya know, I always took that 'thighs like a hippo' comment as further evidence of Rimmer confusion about what is supposed to be sexually attractive in women. As in, he thinks about it and goes "well, if women are attractive, surely MOAR of them, as large as possible, would be EVEN MORE desirable?" He seems, to me, to be constantly and desperately trying not only to be heterosexual, but the right kind of heterosexual.

Just so that's clear, I'm not arguing that fat women aren't desirable (I should hope not, being one myself), but that it's not really mainstream to have and express the view that they are. Not sure if any of that made sense. :p

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veronica-rich.livejournal.com

I suppose that's possible, though if he's trying to be "right," I would figure he knows the ideal enough to identify with wanting that. As I said, him being drunk is what makes me suspect he might be being more honest than usual - though we just can't know. ;-)

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Well, you know, that's the thing. He always tries way, way too hard, and then he gets things wrong because he's too paranoid and stressed and worried and now I'm suddenly thinking about how Rimmer-like Martin Crieff is. (Dunno if you follow Cabin Pressure, if not - you should!)

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I agree that the writers have a tendency to be flippant in this area. I think they may have been drawing on the attitudes to sex in the comedy shows that influenced them (they've mentioned "Steptoe and Son" and "Porridge"). These are shows from the 60s and 70s.

Writing in the 80s and 90s, they updated some attitudes but perhaps not all. I'm sure it was subconscious and they would probably be horrified to have this question asked.

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felineranger.livejournal.com

I don't know why, but in my head I always imagined that when the sex actually took place Rimmer thought Yvonne knew who he was, boasted about his conquest to Lister and was then subsequently humiliated when she later got his name wrong and it became apparent that she'd thought he was someone else all along. It would certainly explain more his slightly flippant and somewhat bitter remark of 'served her right for being concussed'.

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But she got the name wrong during sex, no? Because they didn't meet up later, so the "she kept calling you Norman" comment has to refer to mid-coitus.

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felineranger.livejournal.com

But how would Lister know in that case? I can't imagine Rimmer would have shared that information - not willingly at any rate-so she must have called him by the wrong name when someone else was around to hear it surely?

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I also think that their initial meeting, prior to the sex, must have been public. Otherwise we'd have to assume that either Lister, Petersen or someone else actually had their ear to the door whilst the sex was taking place, or that Yvonne deliberately told someone afterwards.

Re the former, I can't see Lister being quite that cruel (Petersen, maybe). Re the latter, why would she?

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I was talking to

roadstergal about this last night, and she made the point that if Lister really thought what Rimmer did was rape, his reaction would have been much more severe than it is in canon. So, there's that.

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