Rimmer And Yvonne McGruder

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

There's a thread on TOS about the morality of Rimmer sleeping with McGruder while she was suffering from concussion.  Personally I've always assumed that if she'd been discharged from the medibay then she was sufficiently "with it" to know what she was doing.  I also accepted the "Last Human" retcon which explains a lot more about what went on that night.  (Spoilers in the thread just in case anyone hasn't read it.)

But reading some of the points brought up in this thread makes me uncomfortable.  Wondering how others interpret it.

http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/forum/messages.cfm?threadid=B9128677-1999-AFED-B439706F293BF2EA

Sorry to bring up such an unsavoury topic, but it's something that clearly had a big impact on Rimmer and is referenced quite a lot in the series.

Comments

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I think we have limited information on what happened and it's extremely open to interpretation. It could be interpreted as a rape, and I think that's actually the most obvious and straightforward interpretation if you don't take the novels into account. (If she was too impaired to know who she was having sex with, he knew that, and he chose to go through with it anyway, I'd call it rape.)

I don't think it's the only possible interpretation, especially considering the novels. You could, for instance, come up with a scenario where she was clearly willing and misspoke a few times when addressing Rimmer, and Lister exaggerated the whole thing for a joke, and I wouldn't call that rape. (The whole question of mental impairment and consent can be really tricky, especially without knowing the specifics. That's why the whole "How drunk is drunk" thing keeps coming up in terms of alcohol and consent.) And I want to interpret it that way, because I like Rimmer and I don't want him to be a rapist.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

It is very open to interpretation e.g. the fact that she (according to Lister) called him Norman doesn't necessarily mean she didn't know who he was. Maybe she knew him by sight and for some reason got it into her head that that was his name. Everyone assumed it was the concussion talking and didn't correct her out of politeness.

I also like Rimmer and don't want him to be a rapist. It's a shame that such ambiguous dialogue leaves room for doubt.

To Doug Naylor's credit, he obviously realised how dodgy the situation appeared and took steps to retcon it in "Last Human".

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I think they originally meant for Rimmer to be more awful, and gradually made him more sympathetic as things went on. So this was kind of like the "Did Rimmer kill everyone on the ship?" question - they originally wrote it to make him look pretty horrible, but then rewrote it so he'd be much more sympathetic.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Yes, they realised he had to have more depth in order to be a viable long-term character.

I've had another thought - at least part of their encounter was public judging by Lister's "Norman" remark, so surely if there was any doubt about her ability to take care of herself, Lister and others wouldn't have left them alone in the first place.

The fact that they slept together seems to have become public knowledge, so presumably McGruder's roommate and friends would have raised hell if there'd been any suggestion that he took advantage of her mental state.

[amy-wolf.livejournal.com]

Sometimes people do ignore that sort of thing, sadly. But Lister not only ignoring it all, but teasing Rimmer about it later means that either it was actually consensual and he was exaggerating her confusion, or he's a terrible person.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Well, obviously I'm plumping for the former. Lister as I see him (and surely almost anyone else who's watched the series does) would never do that.