Rimmer And Yvonne McGruder

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

There's a thread on TOS about the morality of Rimmer sleeping with McGruder while she was suffering from concussion.  Personally I've always assumed that if she'd been discharged from the medibay then she was sufficiently "with it" to know what she was doing.  I also accepted the "Last Human" retcon which explains a lot more about what went on that night.  (Spoilers in the thread just in case anyone hasn't read it.)

But reading some of the points brought up in this thread makes me uncomfortable.  Wondering how others interpret it.

http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/forum/messages.cfm?threadid=B9128677-1999-AFED-B439706F293BF2EA

Sorry to bring up such an unsavoury topic, but it's something that clearly had a big impact on Rimmer and is referenced quite a lot in the series.

Comments

[jameta4all.livejournal.com]

MANY SPOILERS FOR BOOKS AND TV.

Sexual assault is to touch someone with sexual implication, without their consent.
Rape is penile penetration without consent (note: legally speaking ciswomen are not capable of rape, only sexual assault).

Whether or not McGruder was capable of consent is arguable. Rape cases are often thrown out because the victim and/or accused were drunk, or under some kind of influence, or had a questionable capacity to understand the situation. For example, I read a case about a young man with autism who sexually assaulted his sister. Although the ACT was sexual assault, his capacity to understand his actions were questionable and he wasn't charged.

If McGruder was concussed and Rimmer was of sound mind, it would be rape. If Rimmer was drunk (but there's no evidence of that as he only mentioned eating pizza) then he raped her.

I'm speaking only in legal terms, and as I say, most cases are thrown out because it's such a grey issue.

But this isn't the only time the writers do this. Sex and sexual assault is treated quite flippantly on several occasions.

Lister is drugged and assaulted by a female Gelf (Last Human).
Rimmer is assaulted as a minor by his uncle (he thought Rimmer was his mother).
When Rimmer is given a female body (Better Than Life) he is abused verbally and physically by his associates (in defence, it was his own mind making it happen to teach him a lesson about misogyny) and then they attempt to pimp him out for work.

And I'm sure there are many more instances.

[erinptah]

Technical note: While I don't know what jurisdiction you're coming from, the FBI's definition of rape (and therefore the legal definition in the United States) is "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

That's also closer to how support and advocacy organizations for victims/survivors have been defining it for years.

[laurenthemself]

Yeah, what about every instance of the goddamned sexual magnetism virus being used? While I love the writers for their humour and clever writing, there have always been some seriously problematic as hell moments revolving around sex.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

The sexual magnetism virus is inherently dodgy. I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that Rimmer's exploits in "BITR" turn out to have been a hallucination.

As for the ending, my mind has always inserted an extra bit after the credits where the wardens step in and stop the attack on Rimmer. Fanon if you like.

A question for you as a mod - are we supposed to warn for spoilers when discussing the novels? The first one did come out over two decades ago. ;)

[laurenthemself]

Being of stout frame myself, I'm still irritated that there was that air of 'ha ha, Rimmer had to shag a fatty', on top of everything else.

IIRC I had the wardens stop the attack on Rimmer when I was writing Floor 13, but that was ten years ago and if I go and look I'll probably want to rewrite it. Or obliterate its existence from the internet. But that's my headcanon as well.

No, you do not need to warn for spoilers when discussing the novels. If you want to say there's novel discussion so people who haven't read them can skip the entry, that's fine - I am totally pro people being that kind of polite. But the only thing we officially need spoiler warnings for are anything to do with RDX.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was annoying (the fat thing). But to be fair, I was rewatching "Memory" the other night, and when Rimmer is drunk and honest, and Lister asks what he wants most, he's all "to have sex with a woman with thighs like a hippo's?" and seems pretty happy at the idea. Coupled with his book-canon love of looking at Renaissance naked women, I get the idea Rimmer might not have any problems with bigger ladies.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Ya know, I always took that 'thighs like a hippo' comment as further evidence of Rimmer confusion about what is supposed to be sexually attractive in women. As in, he thinks about it and goes "well, if women are attractive, surely MOAR of them, as large as possible, would be EVEN MORE desirable?" He seems, to me, to be constantly and desperately trying not only to be heterosexual, but the right kind of heterosexual.

Just so that's clear, I'm not arguing that fat women aren't desirable (I should hope not, being one myself), but that it's not really mainstream to have and express the view that they are. Not sure if any of that made sense. :p

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I suppose that's possible, though if he's trying to be "right," I would figure he knows the ideal enough to identify with wanting that. As I said, him being drunk is what makes me suspect he might be being more honest than usual - though we just can't know. ;-)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Well, you know, that's the thing. He always tries way, way too hard, and then he gets things wrong because he's too paranoid and stressed and worried and now I'm suddenly thinking about how Rimmer-like Martin Crieff is. (Dunno if you follow Cabin Pressure, if not - you should!)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I agree that the writers have a tendency to be flippant in this area. I think they may have been drawing on the attitudes to sex in the comedy shows that influenced them (they've mentioned "Steptoe and Son" and "Porridge"). These are shows from the 60s and 70s.

Writing in the 80s and 90s, they updated some attitudes but perhaps not all. I'm sure it was subconscious and they would probably be horrified to have this question asked.