reddwarfslash | Parallel Universe

Parallel Universe

I've always loved this ep and appreciated Angela Bruce and Suzanne Bertish's spot-on impressions of Craig and Chris. But I have to admit that the way Arlene and Deb behave casts a possibly uncomfortable light on Arnold and Dave. I asked Saylee (andimeantitosting) on Tumblr about her favourite RD things and her least favourite character was "Arlene Rimmer. She makes me very uncomfortable and I don't like the things her behaviour implies about our Rimmer".

I've tried to link to the Tumblr discussion, but my local library apparently hates Tumblr, so I've had to copy and paste.

Me:
Thanks. :) With Arlene and Deb, I think Rob and Doug fell into the classic trap of writing to suit their theme for that ep rather than staying in character.

I can’t imagine Dave being that casual about the possibility that he’d got someone pregnant either. I tend to fanwank it away when I write fic (she was in shock, she had the hangover from hell etc), so you could try doing the same for Rimmer.

Despite all that I still love the ep. The actresses are spot on with their impressions of Craig and Chris. Plus of course, Tongue-tied. :)

Kahvi (Norwegianpornfaerie):
I actually strongly disagree that Deb isn’t IC as Lister, as it were. The whole point of the episode, as I see it, is to point out that because society is sexist, sexist and horrible attitudes are evident in us even without us realizing it. So yes, I definitely think Dave would react exactly as Deb did. I mean, otherwise the ep would have been pointless. Ditto Arlene. They show some ugly truths about Rimmer and Lister, but it’s important to remember that they are their absolute worst sides. Parallel Universe is there to point out uncomfortable truths. It’s a very brave episode, and I love it.

Me:

Interesting point. I think my view is affected by Rob and Doug’s fairly low retrospective opinion of it (on The Bodysnatcher Collection) which I put down partly to them thinking it’s OOC.

Perhaps I’m being overly fannish, but I rewatched it today and the dialogue just jars with me. From Arlene as well as Deb. I think I may expand on this on LJ.

Kahvi:

Well, a couple of things: For one, it’s not so much about bad personality/behavior as it is about highlighting privilege. And Deb isn’t so much being an asshole as being in total denial of her privilege, as it were. And Arlene isn’t just dealing with privilege, but some utterly fucked up ideas about gender roles, etc. to the point where she doesn’t even think of men as human beings. After all, the whole bit with the alternates echoes the earlier “seduction” scene where Rimmer showcases his warped ideas about women. And of course, Grant/Naylor’s point is, despite Lister’s ability to see Rimmer’s blatant sexism, he’s totally blind to his own privilege. It’s an incredibly feminist episode, though possibly not entirely in the way Rob and Doug intended. The way it ended up, though… I love it, and I love Arlene and Deb. I get and I applaud the recent desire in the fandom to explore other types of female Listers and Rimmers, but I think Arlene and Deb are so important, and I’d hate to see them dismissed, for any reason.

Secondly, Deb and Arlene aren’t just reacting to a couple of men; they’re reaction to versions of themselves. They’re very much aware of and savvy to the fact that the other person is them, to the point where it has to influence their behavior. Arlene goes after Arnold so aggressively because she assumes that he is just like her - hence sexually frustrated and out to prove his/her man/womanhood, but a man - which means he’ll naturally submit to her seduction techniques. Yes, these have never worked before, but clearly, that’s been the fault of the other people involved; this is RIMMER; just as much as she is, so naturally, he’ll react like he “should.” (Tangentially, the fact that Arlene and Arn clearly didn’t have sex has always been a hint at Rimmer’s homosexuality, to me.) Likewise, Deb assumes that Dave is just like her, but also, because of her privilege, assigns a whole bunch of gender-specific attitudes to him. So, when she realizes he hasn’t used protection, she’s doubly annoyed because surely, if she was a man, she’d thought of that, wouldn’t she?

Not sure if any of that made sense. I might have to re-watch it myself, though personally, Tongue-Tied makes me cringe. :p

Me:
I find Tongue-Tied charmingly silly, but each to their own. :)

Good points. I should probably clarify that I too love Arlene and Deb and “Parallel Universe” is one of my fave eps.

I think it’s because of the very specific situation that Lister and Rimmer are in - virtually no human interaction between “The End” and Series VII - that I have problems imagining them behaving like Arlene (when she starts sexually harassing Rimmer) and Deb (everything after they wake up in Arlene’s bunk). But I get the point about ignorance of privilege.

Surely though, Rimmer should have chased Arlene to prove his “manly heterosexuality”? They’ve both had a few drinks in the disco scene but she’s the only one who starts behaving like Sid the Sexist. I know, the scene wouldn’t work if Rimmer was willing.

Source: andimeantittosting

So, what do others think? Are Deb and Arlene good reflections of Dave and Arnold in this ep, or are they exaggerated for comic effect like, for example, the Highs and Lows in "Demons And Angels"?

Perhaps I'm being fangirlish, but I have a hard time imagining Dave being so callous about a possible pregnancy and Arnold being so aggressive with anyone of either sex, but Kahvi makes some excellent points.

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My view of Arlene and Deb has always been pretty simple. Like any version of Rimmer or Lister in any parallel universe, they will have their own personalities and will not necessarily be directly opposing or mirroring Lister and Rimmer Prime (i.e., our versions). So while you can say they have more personality traits in common than not, you can't say one will be exactly like the other. In other words, I see the possibility for Arlene being as far from Arnold as Ace is from Arnold - gender should not make a difference in this respect.

So, while I think the whole point was Rob and Doug poking fun at patriarchal attitudes and double standards by reversing expectations (like those photos being passed around of men posing in skimpy outfits on motorcycles and cars, to highlight how this is a thing we only expect from comely female models), I also think you can't call Arlene a perfect reflection of Arnold, or Deb of Dave - or vice versa. After all, strictly speaking, a dog is not the opposite of a cat; they're merely two different animals. ;-)

Edited 2013-12-12 20:01 (UTC)

Excellent point about the differences between dogs and cats. I remember thinking, for example, that we've never seen Dave have pin-ups inside his locker like Deb.

Also, Spanners is fairly different from Lister, even if "Backwards" the novel establishes that personality wise they have more in common than at first appears.

Slightly OT, but I really felt sorry for Lister at the end of the ep - both Rimmer and Cat think it's hilarious and Kryten isn't around to offer support. No wonder he repaired him asap.

I have to say v_r makes a good point, but also the behaviour of Arlene and Deb has never bothered me. First because, well, it's comedy, although that's not to say it's not worth questioning, it's just one reason why I never have.

Wrt the sexual harrassment thing, you could argue that in a fem-dominated world certain personality traits are more valued, and Arlene is actually slightly more successful - and hence more chauvinistic - in her world. Arnold is possibly also more attractive to her than she is to him. So it's a combination of power and attractiveness, possibly?

I don't remember Deb as being callous, more incredulous that certain basic practices hadn't been observed? But yeah, she's also more chauvinistic than Dave, I think.

Or maybe, on a meta level, they reflect the writers' sekrit beliefs than women are more sexually aggressive than men, but just conditioned to hide it better. LOL. Okay, now I'm just rambling *g*

Perhaps "callous" is a slightly strong choice of word, more "casual". I've been thinking about this because I have an Arlene/Deb WIP (on AO3) where they're dealing with Jim and Bexley and I'm trying to put myself in their shoes a bit more.

I know it's comedy and it still makes me laugh, but as I said to Vero above, I did feel for Dave in the final scene where Rimmer and Cat are being, frankly, slappable. Much though I usually like them.

They’re very much aware of and savvy to the fact that the other person is them, to the point where it has to influence their behavior. Arlene goes after Arnold so aggressively because she assumes that he is just like her - hence sexually frustrated and out to prove his/her man/womanhood, but a man - which means he’ll naturally submit to her seduction techniques. Yes, these have never worked before, but clearly, that’s been the fault of the other people involved; this is RIMMER; just as much as she is, so naturally, he’ll react like he “should.” (Tangentially, the fact that Arlene and Arn clearly didn’t have sex has always been a hint at Rimmer’s homosexuality, to me.)

Arlene still feels off to me, but that's a really interesting interpretation. Especially if you put it together with the idea that Rimmer is gay. Possibly for some reason, Arlene never had her own Yvonne (Evan) MacGruder encounter and is therefore still trying to prove her heterosexuality by nailing some guy?

And I can actually see Arnold not responding well to Arlene specifically because she went after him really aggressively first. He is, at the least, kind of sexist, he's got a massive insecure streak, and he's been established as not getting on with his alternate selves. So when a fairly ordinary-looking woman* who reminds him far too much of everything he doesn't like about himself starts coming on aggressively, then he'd suddenly find the situation not hot at all, but unpleasant. (I know a lot of guys get downright offended if a woman they don't find attractive starts hitting on them.)

*I think he might have reacted differently if she'd been more conventionally attractive and/or more obviously trying to look sexy. If she'd looked like something out of a sex fantasy, he might have overlooked her personality.

(I can actually quite see Dave reacting like Deb. In the short term being more "What, didn't you cover this? It's your responsibility!" and being a bit nicer about it after calming down. And, well, he did ultimately dump the kids off in her universe and not really mention them again, so her not showing much concern over possible offspring of a one-night stand when there wasn't even a confirmed pregnancy yet doesn't surprise me. Deb's experience in that scene was having a drunken hookup, having Arlene jump in and try to freak everyone out about possible pregnancy, and then oh shit, the guy didn't use birth control. Keeping in mind she's the equivalent of the younger, less-mature S2 Dave, her reaction makes sense.)

*I'm assuming morning after pills were not invented in her universe for some reason.

Your reasons for Arnold's bad reaction to Arlene's come-ons make sense. I wish the actors had been told to act drunk (we know Chris can do that superbly) rather than the single line: "I think you've had a bit too much to drink. I always get like this when I'm tanked up". Because they both appear completely sober. Given that they've presumably been drinking at the same rate (see Dave and Deb) if she's drunk and uninhibited he should be too. Even if he still rejects her, he should be ruder or louder about it.

You're right about her not being conventionally attractive (personally, I find both her and Deb quite attractive, but that's me) and that being a possible reason for Rimmer's lack of interest. And on that note, it's interesting that he does find Deb attractive and goes out of his way to ask Dave if he's going to sleep with her. ;)

Oh and props to Rob and Doug for including this line: "She's gone off to get some sexy videos. She seems to think seeing two men together might turn me on". Maybe she's not as obtuse as we think. *Lol*

Seriously though, I'm glad they pointed out the absurdity of straight men thinking straight women would be turned on by lesbian sex. There's a difference between straight and bi.

Yeah, the scene would have worked better if she'd come off as more drunk. Him not being drunk I can see, because if some creepy dude at a bar won't leave me alone, I'm not going to get drunk while he's around.

It's very interesting that Deb's his type.

That line about two men is brilliant, both because it's a total stereotype reversal, and because in a female-dominated society, two men doing it probably would be seen as generically sexy, and everyone would be a bit surprised that many women aren't into it. "Well, male sexuality is fluid" would probably be a cliche.

Yes, I was thinking that the creepiness starts in the disco scene, but actually she slaps his bum in the bunkroom before she's had anything to drink. No wonder he's on his guard.

One thing about this ep - it regularly pops up on the Red Dwarf tag on Tumblr, with someone who's just seen it for the first time raving about what a "feminist masterpiece" it is. Whilst that's definitely hyperbole, it's good that people are still discovering it and having their perceptions changed.

I really like the episode and I love the parallel universe characters - Deb and Arlene are fantastic performances and we can't leave out the first appearance of Hilly, later Holly's new face. The episode does suffer from bending the characterisation of Lister and Rimmer to suit the plot (or perhaps it's just showing their worst sides?), but overall I enjoy it so much I don't mind. Every loathsome behaviour shown by Deb and Arlene towards Dave and Arnold is one I've had directed at me in this universe, and it feels good to see acknowledgement that, yes, treating people like that IS unacceptable.

I disagree that Deb and Arlene are meant to be as different from Dave and Arnold as dogs from cats. Arlene's reference to "the worm-do line" shows that they're meant to be direct parallels; the Dog is a great expectation-subverting joke for the audience as well as for the Cat, much funnier than a vain female Cat could have been.

I've always gone with

amy_wolf's theory that Arnold is turned off by Arlene specifically because she's pursuing him aggressively, with the elaboration that when they meet he's already on the back foot, feeling nervous about entering a different dimension and unsure what dangers he'll find, whereas she's confident and at home on her own ship in her own universe (with her own Camera Monthly magazines!). It could have been him pursuing her if she was the one intruding on his territory - at least according to this ep's characterisation - and she would have been just as horrified. Though I do like

daasgrrl's idea of Arnold being more conventionally attractive by the standards of Arlene's universe than vice versa.

As for Deb and Dave, I'm surprised that they didn't fall into bed together sooner! They both seem to operate on an "overcoming resistance" model of sexual relations, and she had to have been pushing against reluctance that just wasn't there. Dave hasn't been exposed to any advice about "nice boys don't" or admonished against seeming "easy to pull". On the other hand, having sex with your dimensional alternate is pretty weird, so maybe there are some inhibitions to overcome and being very drunk makes it seem like a better idea!

For the late 80s, the ep is pretty progressive. As you say, it's nice to have sexist attitudes portrayed as very clearly wrong and the fact that it's done through comedy stops it from becoming preachy.

I'd forgotten that Arlene repeats Arnold's "Wormdo" line. With that and the attempted hypnotism, the parallels are strong. Hmmm.

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Parallel Universe

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