Labels In RD Fic (Or Lack Thereof)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

A comment I left on a RD slash fic on AO3 and its author's reply set me thinking about the extremely relaxed approach to labels which virtually all RD fic writers seem to have.  With Michael_McGruder's permission I'm reproducing the exchange here.  (You can also find a link to their fic in the first comment to this entry; I recommend the whole series it's a part of.)

Me: You know, I think this is the first time I've read the word "bisexual" in an actual RD fic as opposed to meta.  Not a criticism, just an observation.

MM: Yeah, I'm not sure why everyone is so skittish about defining anyone as bisexual in fics, considering nearly 100% of them make Lister bi.

It's a good question.  I'm not sure whether it's because we're usually talking about Lister rather than Rimmer.  While the canonical evidence of his interest in women is undeniable (and no-one's trying to deny it) he also seems pretty likely to dislike the whole concept of labels.

Alternatively, it could be because of RD's setting and the fact that there are no humans around to make definitions necessary.  Or maybe there's just something about this show which encourages a laid back, laissez-faire approach to this kind of thing, much as no-one's bothered about defining Rimmer or Lister as a top or a bottom.  What do you think? :)

Comments

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Michael_McGruder's fic: http://archiveofourown.org/works/3301439

(Don't be put off by the archive warnings - they refer to a dream Rimmer has, not his relationship with Lister.)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

My own take, is that RD is so far in the future, that we've simply progressed to the point where we no longer (as a society) feel the need to attach labels to people's sexualities. Except perhaps for on Io, where I imagine people to be a bit backwards in their thinking. This isn't based on any real concrete canon evidence though. Lister's reactions to Kochanski suggesting that her version of him was gay completely contradict this, but I tend to just ignore that exchange, since I think it was lazy writing, and very out-of-character.

In my own head-canon, I just don't see labels as being necessary. I imagine people sleeping with whomever they like without any real thought about needing to "call" it something, whether they like sleeping with one gender, many genders, or no genders. It's probably just my envisioning the future the way that I wish the present was now. :)

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Maybe authors feel that it'll be clear enough from the narrative, especially if they write Lister as having experience with men other than Rimmer?

If he's written as never/rarely having thought of men that way, though, the unwillingness to label might come from not wanting to presume. It's like in Corrie (-_- I know, I know, it's a soap, but) when Marcus called himself "a gay man who's in love with a woman" when he was with Maria. I know people in real life as well who identify similarly, and it would be rude of me, a non-queer person, to question that, you know? It's easier in a way to portray Lister as doing whatever/whoever and let him figure out "offscreen" what his orientation is.

[michaelmcgruder.livejournal.com]

Debated about whether or not to join the conversation, but figured what the hell. And I'll be speaking strictly in the context of Red Dwarf fan fiction, not fan fiction in general.

The thing about this "labels" business, is that it never, ever comes up, unless a character is identifying as bisexual. Many fics have one or more of the characters coming out as gay, and I've never heard anyone say, "ooh, labeling him gay seems a bit specific." It seems to be related to the overall problem of bi-erasure, but I don't want to speculate too much on where other people are coming from in their aversion to the word "bisexual."

As for the political sentiments in RD canon, which I attempted to address on Tumblr once but for some reason it digressed into Ionian politics about equal rights for the dead... The idea that in the future people beyond labels is demonstrably untrue. Yes, there's the business of Lister and Kochanski's conversation in Duct Soup, where the whole thing felt a bit weird, but all of VII was a bit weird and it's canon whether people like it or not.

It's not just Lister feeling funny about being gay in another dimension or Bent Bob. Herman Goering is referred to as a transvestite, in IWCD Lister comments Ken is a transvestite, Lister ribs Rimmer about the fact that he looks like he could get a man with the giant hair Holly gave him, Rimmer is notoriously homophobic, Ace comments that he didn't realize Bongo was non-hetero, Rimmer commenting that Lister's ex in Dear Dave was probably a man... Sexuality, sexual preference, and sexual identity are conversations in Red Dwarf canon.

Going back to my original comment on AO3, it just seems totally bizarre to me that when almost all of the RD fiction involve bisexual characters, people aren't very keen to actually say it openly.

[michaelmcgruder.livejournal.com]

I must admit, all this being said, when I wrote that bit of dialog between Rimmer and Lister I thought, "hmm, does this seem slightly out of character?" It's not a passive scene, and it does ring a little bit differently. I thought about the reasons why it seemed to stand out, and I wasn't satisfied with the answers I was coming up with, so I decided to keep it in.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I think I had Lister cautiously self-identify as bi in a fic once. I quite often write him as having had previous experience (or at least desire) for other men in the past, because he's an open-minded character and its fun to play with the possibilities. However, its quite hard to justify that from canon. Despite his obvious affection for Rimmer, there's really very little in the show itself to suggest he might not be 100% straight (as opposed to Rimmer, for whom there's a lot of scope to presume some degree of repressed homosexuality). Even without the ever present, hetero-affirming spectre of Kochanski, Lister's sexual energy is very much centred around women in the show and books (with maybe one or two debatable exceptions). Therefore it's harder for a fic to suddenly categorise Lister as bi without some explanation, although not of course impossible - this is fanfiction after all, and you can write a character however you like. I mostly see Lister as a straight guy who isn't too hung up on labels and has gradually fallen in love with the person closest to him, who happens to be a guy (and a smeghead).

This may be influenced by my own dislike of labels to pigeonhole my own sexuality. I'm happily hetero-married, but do not consider myself 100% straight, however for me, the term bisexual doesn't really seem to fit either. I am physically attracted to women. I have had sex with women and still regularly fantasise about women, but I have never had 'a crush' as such or actually been in love with a woman. Possibly I'm hetero-romantic and bisexual but to be honest, the whole idea of putting it into words like that irks me. I am me. I either want to have sex with someone or I don't, and I don't feel the need to quantify it, although I understand why other people like to and find it comforting. Its just not for me.

[themarshmonster.livejournal.com]

I think Lister is the kind of guy who is pretty free about who he likes, and doesn't really feel the need for labels. if he did use a label, he probably would be bi or possibly pansexual, but since he's easily going and there aren't any other humans anyway, he doesn't really care.