Labels In RD Fic (Or Lack Thereof)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

A comment I left on a RD slash fic on AO3 and its author's reply set me thinking about the extremely relaxed approach to labels which virtually all RD fic writers seem to have.  With Michael_McGruder's permission I'm reproducing the exchange here.  (You can also find a link to their fic in the first comment to this entry; I recommend the whole series it's a part of.)

Me: You know, I think this is the first time I've read the word "bisexual" in an actual RD fic as opposed to meta.  Not a criticism, just an observation.

MM: Yeah, I'm not sure why everyone is so skittish about defining anyone as bisexual in fics, considering nearly 100% of them make Lister bi.

It's a good question.  I'm not sure whether it's because we're usually talking about Lister rather than Rimmer.  While the canonical evidence of his interest in women is undeniable (and no-one's trying to deny it) he also seems pretty likely to dislike the whole concept of labels.

Alternatively, it could be because of RD's setting and the fact that there are no humans around to make definitions necessary.  Or maybe there's just something about this show which encourages a laid back, laissez-faire approach to this kind of thing, much as no-one's bothered about defining Rimmer or Lister as a top or a bottom.  What do you think? :)

Comments

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Michael_McGruder's fic: http://archiveofourown.org/works/3301439

(Don't be put off by the archive warnings - they refer to a dream Rimmer has, not his relationship with Lister.)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

My own take, is that RD is so far in the future, that we've simply progressed to the point where we no longer (as a society) feel the need to attach labels to people's sexualities. Except perhaps for on Io, where I imagine people to be a bit backwards in their thinking. This isn't based on any real concrete canon evidence though. Lister's reactions to Kochanski suggesting that her version of him was gay completely contradict this, but I tend to just ignore that exchange, since I think it was lazy writing, and very out-of-character.

In my own head-canon, I just don't see labels as being necessary. I imagine people sleeping with whomever they like without any real thought about needing to "call" it something, whether they like sleeping with one gender, many genders, or no genders. It's probably just my envisioning the future the way that I wish the present was now. :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm very taken with the concept of RD being set far enough in the future that its setting is a largely prejudice free utopia, Io aside. We're not the only ones - a lot of fans on the sites which aren't about fanfic were vocally dismayed at the (clumsy, I feel) introduction of race issues into "Fathers & Suns" as it blew a hole in their concept of the RD universe. I can sympathise.

It's unfortunate that the series since Doug assumed sole control have gradually chipped away at this concept, what with "Duct Soup", "F&S" and other small hints that the future isn't as egalitarian as we hoped. Then again, maybe that would have happened under Rob's direction too.

But there are ways to get around it. I have a theory that the Boyz have simply been watching too much 20th century TV. ;)

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Maybe authors feel that it'll be clear enough from the narrative, especially if they write Lister as having experience with men other than Rimmer?

If he's written as never/rarely having thought of men that way, though, the unwillingness to label might come from not wanting to presume. It's like in Corrie (-_- I know, I know, it's a soap, but) when Marcus called himself "a gay man who's in love with a woman" when he was with Maria. I know people in real life as well who identify similarly, and it would be rude of me, a non-queer person, to question that, you know? It's easier in a way to portray Lister as doing whatever/whoever and let him figure out "offscreen" what his orientation is.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Possibly. That's actually fairly unusual though in RD fic. I take your point though.

I appreciate that a lot, especially considering I define myself as a lesbian despite my crush on Craig. That's just what feels right to me and I really like the fact that no-one on here has ever questioned that. :)

Whilst I completely agree that real people can define themselves any way they want, it's different with fictional characters. Willow in "Buffy" describes herself as a lesbian after falling in love with Tara despite having previously been in a loving relationship with cis male Oz. I've seen this cited often as an example of bi erasure because she's not a real person and could have provided bi representation.

Of course it's different with Lister who's officially "perfectly straight" as Kahvi and Roadstergal would put it. Despite dreaming about kissing a man. ;)

I have to admit though, hearing the characters use words like "bisexual" and "racist" (Rimmer in "F&S") does jar a bit. Given the section in the Series IV doc about never having mentioned race (at the time) it's kind of a shame that Doug had to spoil that.

It doesn't really bother me that much though. If a fic is good people can use all the labels they like. :)

[(Anonymous)]

...You've got an unnecessary "cis" in that remark about Willow, seeing as how a relationship with a trans man would still have been a relationship with a man...

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Sorry! I wrote that in a hurry and knew it didn't quite sound right. I think what I was attempting to communicate to those reading this who've never seen "Buffy" was that Oz wasn't a non-binary or androgynous character, as his name is pretty ambiguous (it's actually an abbreviation of his surname). I wasn't thinking of trans men specifically.

I was trying to underline the fact that she was presented as having no same-sex interest prior to meeting Tara. Although we did meet a vampire version of her who was very clearly bisexual, but given the outrage online when her relationship with Tara became canon a lot of people overlooked that. As they always will unless you actually show them the characters kissing, sadly.

[michaelmcgruder.livejournal.com]

Debated about whether or not to join the conversation, but figured what the hell. And I'll be speaking strictly in the context of Red Dwarf fan fiction, not fan fiction in general.

The thing about this "labels" business, is that it never, ever comes up, unless a character is identifying as bisexual. Many fics have one or more of the characters coming out as gay, and I've never heard anyone say, "ooh, labeling him gay seems a bit specific." It seems to be related to the overall problem of bi-erasure, but I don't want to speculate too much on where other people are coming from in their aversion to the word "bisexual."

As for the political sentiments in RD canon, which I attempted to address on Tumblr once but for some reason it digressed into Ionian politics about equal rights for the dead... The idea that in the future people beyond labels is demonstrably untrue. Yes, there's the business of Lister and Kochanski's conversation in Duct Soup, where the whole thing felt a bit weird, but all of VII was a bit weird and it's canon whether people like it or not.

It's not just Lister feeling funny about being gay in another dimension or Bent Bob. Herman Goering is referred to as a transvestite, in IWCD Lister comments Ken is a transvestite, Lister ribs Rimmer about the fact that he looks like he could get a man with the giant hair Holly gave him, Rimmer is notoriously homophobic, Ace comments that he didn't realize Bongo was non-hetero, Rimmer commenting that Lister's ex in Dear Dave was probably a man... Sexuality, sexual preference, and sexual identity are conversations in Red Dwarf canon.

Going back to my original comment on AO3, it just seems totally bizarre to me that when almost all of the RD fiction involve bisexual characters, people aren't very keen to actually say it openly.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

All good observations. While I think you make a fair point, the only actual label used in those exchanges (by my recollection) was the comments about transvestites. Although there's comments about people getting men, suggestions of bread being buttered on certain sides, no one (as far as I can remember) has ever used the terms gay, homosexual, or even heterosexual, apart from the one exchange with Kochanski which felt very... out of place.

I will freely admit, that I am probably not the best person to even be answering these questions. I started reading fic very shortly after I started watching the show, so that's probably colored my observations of the characters a great deal. It's hard to see the show through non-fic lenses, once it's gotten into your brain.

[michaelmcgruder.livejournal.com]

It's true that specific terms are infrequently used, but considering all weird sexual situations everyone finds themselves in, bisexuality is pretty pedestrian. I guess I'm just bored of it always being tip toed around.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I would argue that not mentioning a characters sexuality explicitly within a fic might not necessarily be tip-toeing around anything. If I were asked to describe the characters' sexualities, I would definitely describe Lister as bisexual, Rimmer would be tougher to pinpoint. I'd be tempted to say his sexuality hasn't really been defined, both because of his lack of experience, and his own reluctance to see himself as a sexual person (being a member of the Love Celibates, etc.)

But, there's never been a moment in any of the fics I've written where I've felt the need for any of the characters to either talk about or specifically reference what their sexualities are. I don't feel that's me tip-toeing around it though, it's just never felt particularly relevant for the stories I've written. Other people's mileage may vary. :)

There is something I've had on the backburner for months that might require some talk of sexuality once I start fleshing it out, but I'll have to wait and see what happens, once I start actually writing it.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

You know, now that I've thought about it some more, it seems to me that Rimmer is much more likely in fic (and even in canon) to want to stick a label on himself.

Given that it takes him all of part of an episode to declare himself a "working class hero" after learning who his real father is in "The Beginning" I can easily imagine him wanting to define his sexuality too if he started a relationship with Lister. He might even read books about it and come up with his own original label. *Possible fic bunny* :)

Veronica_Rich wrote something like that regarding his new class status (in his own mind). Rimmer feels more comfortable when he has something to cling to.

[michaelmcgruder.livejournal.com]

I must admit, all this being said, when I wrote that bit of dialog between Rimmer and Lister I thought, "hmm, does this seem slightly out of character?" It's not a passive scene, and it does ring a little bit differently. I thought about the reasons why it seemed to stand out, and I wasn't satisfied with the answers I was coming up with, so I decided to keep it in.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I think the reason it stands out is ("Duct Soup" aside), we're used to sexual preference being referred to rather more obliquely. The classic example of this is Ace's "I didn't realise your bread was buttered that side" which I've always liked a lot because of what it says about the character.

So it's possible that people simply feel that labels don't fit the writing style of the show and obviously we as fic writers do tend to try to emulate that.

(Not saying you should have left it out at all. Your fic, your choice.) :)

[michaelmcgruder.livejournal.com]

I slightly wonder if characters being oblique has anything to do with BBC standards and practices in the late 80s and early 90s. Not that it changes what happens to be canon in the show.

[laurenthemself]

I wouldn't be at all shocked if that were the case.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I think I had Lister cautiously self-identify as bi in a fic once. I quite often write him as having had previous experience (or at least desire) for other men in the past, because he's an open-minded character and its fun to play with the possibilities. However, its quite hard to justify that from canon. Despite his obvious affection for Rimmer, there's really very little in the show itself to suggest he might not be 100% straight (as opposed to Rimmer, for whom there's a lot of scope to presume some degree of repressed homosexuality). Even without the ever present, hetero-affirming spectre of Kochanski, Lister's sexual energy is very much centred around women in the show and books (with maybe one or two debatable exceptions). Therefore it's harder for a fic to suddenly categorise Lister as bi without some explanation, although not of course impossible - this is fanfiction after all, and you can write a character however you like. I mostly see Lister as a straight guy who isn't too hung up on labels and has gradually fallen in love with the person closest to him, who happens to be a guy (and a smeghead).

This may be influenced by my own dislike of labels to pigeonhole my own sexuality. I'm happily hetero-married, but do not consider myself 100% straight, however for me, the term bisexual doesn't really seem to fit either. I am physically attracted to women. I have had sex with women and still regularly fantasise about women, but I have never had 'a crush' as such or actually been in love with a woman. Possibly I'm hetero-romantic and bisexual but to be honest, the whole idea of putting it into words like that irks me. I am me. I either want to have sex with someone or I don't, and I don't feel the need to quantify it, although I understand why other people like to and find it comforting. Its just not for me.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I certainly agree that Lister is a predominantly straight character. Ironically given its unpopularity due to Rimmer's reduced role, most of the evidence for him having some degree of same-sex attraction comes from Series VII. I know dreaming about something doesn't necessarily mean you want it to happen, but the way it's presented in "Blue" combined with the "Duct Soup" conversation leaves a strong impression of a man struggling with and confused by feelings he never expected to have. Whether that's because they concern a man or because they concern Rimmer is open to debate, of course.

I wasn't trying to imply that RD fic writers should use labels more often, just wondering why it's so rare in our fandom that it jumped out at me as it did. I understand and respect those who feel no need for labels. I have a theory based on my own experience that if you have strong feelings which run counter to those approved by mainstream society, labels tend to be more important. That possibly also applies to asexuals and aromantics but I wouldn't presume to speak for them. :)

[themarshmonster.livejournal.com]

I think Lister is the kind of guy who is pretty free about who he likes, and doesn't really feel the need for labels. if he did use a label, he probably would be bi or possibly pansexual, but since he's easily going and there aren't any other humans anyway, he doesn't really care.