Rimmer Versus Ace

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

No, not in the popularity stakes - I realise Rimmer's the overwhelming winner on here just as Ace is the overwhelming winner onscreen.  But to what extent does Lister actually want him to be like Ace?

There's no doubt IMO that Lister is infatuated with Ace in "DJ" and would probably have slept with him if circumstances had allowed it.  But that doesn't necessarily mean he's responding so much to Ace as an individual, more to an underlying attraction which was always there but suppressed by Rimmer's personality and latterly his soft-light status.  Of course part of it is the effect which Ace has on most people.

I personally think that the events of "DJ" plant the idea in Rimmer's head that Lister will always go weak at the knees for Ace and that he's in permanent competition with him.  This can only have been reinforced by Lister pushing him to become Ace in "SMAC" even though I perceive Lister as genuinely thinking that he was doing the right thing both for Rimmer and for the multiverse.  I believe he thought that becoming a hero would be the making of Rimmer.

When he dreams of Rimmer's return in "Blue" the man he pictures is neither the real Rimmer nor Ace, but something in between which suggests even he may not be sure which he prefers.  What do the rest of you think?

Comments

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

See, for the sake of Rimmer's emotional health, I always want to write Lister as not wanting Rimmer to be Ace and in fact thinking that Ace is over-the-top. He did concede in SMAC that Ace is a bit full of himself and that Rimmer could (should?) be a different kind of Ace. On the other hand, his admiration for Ace in DJ is so obvious and unchecked. You could argue, I suppose, that his views change over the next few series, and of course Rimmer changes too and has a few brave moments. The one Lister sees in the dream might be a Rimmer who's improved all by himself rather than an Ace-ified Rimmer, if that makes sense.

Buuut on Rimmer's side...the angst potential! The "in permanent competition with Ace" idea is seriously all I think about when I'm concocting angsty fic scenarios. I think Rimmer doesn't want to see himself and Ace as the same person, but he can't ignore the similarities or the thought that if he had fulfilled his potential, if he were even just a little bit better, he would be good enough for Lister. He can't become Kochanski or Lise Yates or whoever else from Lister's past; he could have become Ace, or at least more Ace-like, except now it's too late. 💔

[laurenthemself]

I think he likes them both for different reasons: Rimmer's the one he's grown used to and grown to care for, while Ace is the dashing one, which is why he's got a more pronounced reaction to Ace's presence, because that's more of a flash in the pan crush.

Sorry for the repeated edits. It's too hot to brain.

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think in a way Ace is Lister's 'fantasy' but Rimmer's the one he really wants. Partly because he does believe, against all odds, that Rimmer does have the seeds of greatness in him - something that Rimmer himself doesn't believe, sadly.

[bayliss.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I think Lister want is a combination of Ace and normal Rimmer. He doesn't want all suave and perfect Ace, but, nor does he was all grumpy, bitter, and self loathing Rimmer. Basically he wants whole healthy Rimmer. Brave enough to fight, but smart enough to know when to be himself.

:-)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I explored this idea quite a bit in my 'Doubles' fics, and my take is that Lister wants something in-between. He finds Ace very attractive and charismatic but he doesn't want Rimmer to lose the things that - in Lister's own words - make him special and unique. The dream-Rimmer he kisses is what he wants. Not Ace, but an Arnold who's more relaxed, more confident, more capable. He doesn't want Rimmer to lose the sharp sense of humour, he just wants it to be less mean. He doesn't want to take away his care and attention to detail, he just wants it to be channeled more usefully. He doesn't want Rimmer to be recklessly heroic, he just wants him to be brave enough to fight when it's right. He wants a Rimmer he can rely on. He wants a Rimmer who's not afraid to show his feelings from time to time. Ace is a different person, but he showed Lister that a better version of Arnold was possible.

[cbarriefans.livejournal.com]

And Ace is the first time Lister can touch (a version of) Rimmer in years. There were all these feelings for so long and now there is someone to hold who is so much like Rimmer but not afraid to show emotion ...