Rimmer Versus Ace

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

No, not in the popularity stakes - I realise Rimmer's the overwhelming winner on here just as Ace is the overwhelming winner onscreen.  But to what extent does Lister actually want him to be like Ace?

There's no doubt IMO that Lister is infatuated with Ace in "DJ" and would probably have slept with him if circumstances had allowed it.  But that doesn't necessarily mean he's responding so much to Ace as an individual, more to an underlying attraction which was always there but suppressed by Rimmer's personality and latterly his soft-light status.  Of course part of it is the effect which Ace has on most people.

I personally think that the events of "DJ" plant the idea in Rimmer's head that Lister will always go weak at the knees for Ace and that he's in permanent competition with him.  This can only have been reinforced by Lister pushing him to become Ace in "SMAC" even though I perceive Lister as genuinely thinking that he was doing the right thing both for Rimmer and for the multiverse.  I believe he thought that becoming a hero would be the making of Rimmer.

When he dreams of Rimmer's return in "Blue" the man he pictures is neither the real Rimmer nor Ace, but something in between which suggests even he may not be sure which he prefers.  What do the rest of you think?

Comments

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

See, for the sake of Rimmer's emotional health, I always want to write Lister as not wanting Rimmer to be Ace and in fact thinking that Ace is over-the-top. He did concede in SMAC that Ace is a bit full of himself and that Rimmer could (should?) be a different kind of Ace. On the other hand, his admiration for Ace in DJ is so obvious and unchecked. You could argue, I suppose, that his views change over the next few series, and of course Rimmer changes too and has a few brave moments. The one Lister sees in the dream might be a Rimmer who's improved all by himself rather than an Ace-ified Rimmer, if that makes sense.

Buuut on Rimmer's side...the angst potential! The "in permanent competition with Ace" idea is seriously all I think about when I'm concocting angsty fic scenarios. I think Rimmer doesn't want to see himself and Ace as the same person, but he can't ignore the similarities or the thought that if he had fulfilled his potential, if he were even just a little bit better, he would be good enough for Lister. He can't become Kochanski or Lise Yates or whoever else from Lister's past; he could have become Ace, or at least more Ace-like, except now it's too late. 💔

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I personally think that it's somewhere in between i.e. Lister wishes Rimmer was easier to get on with and brought people up instead of bringing them down. As a natural optimist like him I strongly empathise.

I think some of his reaction in "DJ" is definitely the novelty factor plus, I suspect, he's completely taken back by the force of his sexual attraction to this version of Rimmer. It's only natural that the Rimmer he sees every day is going to come off even worse than usual in comparison. But once Ace is gone it has to set him thinking about how if he can be attracted to one version of Rimmer, why not another?

It does indeed have endless angst potential but someone needs to point out to Rimmer that in Lister's dream he removed the wig straight away and only then did Lister kiss him. I say someone; obviously I mean Lister. ;)

[laurenthemself]

I think he likes them both for different reasons: Rimmer's the one he's grown used to and grown to care for, while Ace is the dashing one, which is why he's got a more pronounced reaction to Ace's presence, because that's more of a flash in the pan crush.

Sorry for the repeated edits. It's too hot to brain.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That's a good way of putting it. Actually, Lister should put it like that to Rimmer and just edit out the word "dashing". ;)

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think in a way Ace is Lister's 'fantasy' but Rimmer's the one he really wants. Partly because he does believe, against all odds, that Rimmer does have the seeds of greatness in him - something that Rimmer himself doesn't believe, sadly.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I always think of the expression on Lister's face in "Demons & Angels" when Rimmer acts all callous about his and Cat's severe danger of death. He just can't understand it (not that I blame him). I think he believes everyone has the potential for greatness - although how he'd define that is debatable - and it's incomprehensible to him that Rimmer can have such an utter lack of team spirit.

Of course from Rimmer's perspective, why should he after the end of "Terrorform"? Neither of them are completely right.

[bayliss.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I think Lister want is a combination of Ace and normal Rimmer. He doesn't want all suave and perfect Ace, but, nor does he was all grumpy, bitter, and self loathing Rimmer. Basically he wants whole healthy Rimmer. Brave enough to fight, but smart enough to know when to be himself.

:-)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you're right. If only he could get that through to Rimmer. ;)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I explored this idea quite a bit in my 'Doubles' fics, and my take is that Lister wants something in-between. He finds Ace very attractive and charismatic but he doesn't want Rimmer to lose the things that - in Lister's own words - make him special and unique. The dream-Rimmer he kisses is what he wants. Not Ace, but an Arnold who's more relaxed, more confident, more capable. He doesn't want Rimmer to lose the sharp sense of humour, he just wants it to be less mean. He doesn't want to take away his care and attention to detail, he just wants it to be channeled more usefully. He doesn't want Rimmer to be recklessly heroic, he just wants him to be brave enough to fight when it's right. He wants a Rimmer he can rely on. He wants a Rimmer who's not afraid to show his feelings from time to time. Ace is a different person, but he showed Lister that a better version of Arnold was possible.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Lovely answer. Regarding your last sentence, I agree but that's the irony. Rimmer thinks Ace gave him an impossible standard to live up to in Lister's eyes but what he actually did was open Lister's eyes to Rimmer's potential. And separately, his own attraction to him as I believe Lister wanted Rimmer to change and grow before he realised what a personal stake he had in that. :)

[cbarriefans.livejournal.com]

And Ace is the first time Lister can touch (a version of) Rimmer in years. There were all these feelings for so long and now there is someone to hold who is so much like Rimmer but not afraid to show emotion ...

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm not sure when Lister realised he was attracted to Rimmer - it could have been pre-series or mid-series - but I do think that being able to touch Ace must have set him thinking. He and Ace are really touchy-feely in "DJ".

Add to that the realisation that a version of Rimmer can be nice and actually like and respect him and no wonder he's so obviously infatuated.