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reddwarfslash2012-10-13 08:23 pm
sunny-bexster.livejournal.com) wrote in reddwarfslash2012-10-13 08:23 pm
Entry tags:
Realisations re 'Fathers & Suns'
Cut for spoilers.
Boyfriend shared some interesting observations from 'Fathers & Suns' today.
I was discussing how a few people on this comm have noted Lister's regression. He's back to the series 1-2 Lister - seemingly motivated only by play. This obviously differs from the Lister from series 6 onwards, who seemed a self-appointed leader in a fair few eps. People have wondered whether the relative safety of the 'Dwarf has led to Lister feeling more at ease and more able to just 'kick back and relax'.
Boyfriend piped up with "I think it's Kochanski"
Series 1-2 Lister vowed to get Kochanski back...despite the fact she was dead. He was single-mindedly determined to get the woman he loved and build a new life in Fiji and the simple matter that she was a pile of radioactive dust seemed irrelevant.
Series X Lister retorts back with "and how am I supposed to do that?" when told to pull himself together and get Kochanski back. We know Kochanski isn't dead in this series - she's just gone.
Somewhere along the line, Lister has lost what little gumption he has. He appears to have given up on the one constant in his life - Kochanski. And frankly, it's affecting his mental health.
It's a bold take by Doug. I've always thought that Lister dealt a little too well with his predicament. He appears to get over the death of the entire crew with relative ease and aside from a few throw-away scenes/references (i.e the depression aspect of Timeslides), it always appears to be Rimmer who is bearing the brunt of mourning for the human race and lamenting their existence.
But now, it appears that Lister is cracking. As of yet, I'm not sure whether this gradual deterioration started before or after Kochanski left. The suggestion in 'Back to Earth' is that Lister wasn't taking care of himself...so it might be the case that for the last few years in show, Lister has been steadily on the decline in terms of happiness.
What do people think? And what do people expect to see/want to see in the forthcoming eps?
Boyfriend shared some interesting observations from 'Fathers & Suns' today.
I was discussing how a few people on this comm have noted Lister's regression. He's back to the series 1-2 Lister - seemingly motivated only by play. This obviously differs from the Lister from series 6 onwards, who seemed a self-appointed leader in a fair few eps. People have wondered whether the relative safety of the 'Dwarf has led to Lister feeling more at ease and more able to just 'kick back and relax'.
Boyfriend piped up with "I think it's Kochanski"
Series 1-2 Lister vowed to get Kochanski back...despite the fact she was dead. He was single-mindedly determined to get the woman he loved and build a new life in Fiji and the simple matter that she was a pile of radioactive dust seemed irrelevant.
Series X Lister retorts back with "and how am I supposed to do that?" when told to pull himself together and get Kochanski back. We know Kochanski isn't dead in this series - she's just gone.
Somewhere along the line, Lister has lost what little gumption he has. He appears to have given up on the one constant in his life - Kochanski. And frankly, it's affecting his mental health.
It's a bold take by Doug. I've always thought that Lister dealt a little too well with his predicament. He appears to get over the death of the entire crew with relative ease and aside from a few throw-away scenes/references (i.e the depression aspect of Timeslides), it always appears to be Rimmer who is bearing the brunt of mourning for the human race and lamenting their existence.
But now, it appears that Lister is cracking. As of yet, I'm not sure whether this gradual deterioration started before or after Kochanski left. The suggestion in 'Back to Earth' is that Lister wasn't taking care of himself...so it might be the case that for the last few years in show, Lister has been steadily on the decline in terms of happiness.
What do people think? And what do people expect to see/want to see in the forthcoming eps?
no subject
Seriously though, regarding what to expect from forthcoming eps, we know that Ep 5 has a storyline which might possibly give Lister renewed purpose (I won't go into it as I know some are still avoiding spoilers). It depends what the outcome of that ep is.
Re Lister's general behaviour, in "BTE" he was clearly suffering from depression, but how severely I couldn't say, not being a doctor. My limited understanding of the condition is that it comes and goes, so perhaps he's currently in a "down" phase.
no subject
I recall that one of the first things you said to me after you saw F&S was "I really think Lister's going mad". He seems very dissatisfied with his life, and who can blame him? It's like the anti-pep talk Kryten gave him in the first trailer. On Red Dwarf, Lister's got no job, family, prospects, future. Clearly he's disappointed with himself from what we saw in this week's ep. He's not happy with how his life has turned out. He's totally ready to settle down--as evidenced by Lister Snr telling Lister Jr to build a proper house and find Krissie. We saw this a bit in BtE too, with the tinfoil family. Lister's past his laddish bachelor days. He's reached that age where he's looking for something more in life. And he's frustrated because he doesn't know *how* to get what he wants, and if it's even possible.
I think it's safe to say Lister's having a mid-life crisis. That would explain why he appears to be regressing and acting more like his series I-II self.
BtE ended with a hopeful Lister saying he'd get Kochanski back. Now he's realizing that's easier said than done. If Kochanski doesn't want to be found, Lister's not going to have much luck. It's a pretty big universe out there. On a side note, I wonder if she's gone insane being on her own for years...
Lister has no idea how to get Krissie back-- "And how am I supposed to do that?"
I don't think he's exactly given up on Kochanski; I think he's back to square one. He had Kochanski once, and she died. He mourned over her for years and looked for any way to get her back. Then he had her again, and she died again. Or so he thought. So he had to go through the whole mourning process again. And then to find out she's alive after all and left because she was sick of how he was acting? That'd be a blow. Those kids on the bus said Lister had been dumped and KK left because she couldn't stand his self-destructive behavior.
Which begs the question--why would Lister be drinking himself to death if he was with Kochanski, and had what he'd wanted all these years? Maybe it wasn't everything he'd imagined and he couldn't take it. I know Lister still wants to get back to Earth, but I think he's finding that pursuit more and more futile. I think there must have been something else going on during that time we don't know about.
I think I've just created more questions than answers, really :/
no subject
Or even worse, they could have been actively trying for kids and getting nowhere. Maybe there's a fertility issue with one of them.
no subject
In fact, there was a fic written not long after BtE came out where Kochanski had a miscarriage and it tore her's and Lister's relationship apart. I can't remember if it was on lj or fanfiction.net. But I think it would explain a lot if that was the canon explanation.
We know Lister can have kids. But maybe the Kochanski from the AU can't. We assume that in Ouroboros, Kochanski asked Lister for his 'contribution' because her Dave couldn't father a child in his hologrammatic status. Which is accurate. But what if it's KK who can't have kids? I got the impression she planned on using a uterine simulator all along, judging from a deleted scene. I think a fertility issue could be likely.
As for it not being fair bringing kids into their situation--it is a pretty bleak existence. But I know Lister also feels it's his solemn duty to rebuild the human race. He's had a couple of good attempts, but has always had to send his offspring off to different points in time and other dimensions. Poor Listy :(
I'm VERY curious what Dear Dave will bring!
no subject
Knowing Doug, if infertility was the issue he'd give it a Dwarf twist, such as now that Lister's given birth he can't father kids but can give birth to them. Or something.
I know that sounds like fanfic, but who cares? That's what this comm's for. ;)
Re "Dear Dave", surely they'll *have* to at least mention the twins, given the storyline?
no subject
> now that Lister's given birth he can't father kids but can give birth to them. Or something.
I like the way you think! :) I know I've discussed this with Bex before--something had to have stayed the same when Lister crossed over back to his universe from the PU for the pregnancy to still work. Which is still a mystery in and of itself. I mean--where WERE the twins? lol...Maybe his reproductive system works differently now, lol! That would explain the bit about the chicken in DNA. (granted, the machine can probably alter sex, but I still love the epidural line).
We know Lister can still father twins, because he fathered himself. It was like peeling an orange with chopsticks hehe
But Lister hasn't had sexual relations with another woman since Deb, unless you count the times in AR (and possibly offscreen post series VIII with KK). So who knows? Maybe the PU changed him. It would be a Dwarfy-twist; one twisted enough to come from Doug's devious brain! XD
I will be SEVERELY disappointed if there's no mention of the twins in Dear Dave. I don't know how Doug could not think of Lister's other children there, or Lister for that matter. His sons would have to cross his mind. I like to believe Lister thinks about Jim and Bexley more than he lets on. (On a side note, I love that their Polaroid is still up in his bunk. Why wouldn't it be? :)
I was watching Downton Abbey, and Anna said something that made me think of Lister and the twins, obsessed fangirl that I am: "If you had a child and that child was taken from you--if that child was sent to the moon, there wouldn't be one day when they were out of your thoughts; not one moment when you weren't praying for their welfare, even if you knew you'd never seen them again." Sums it up perfectly, I think!
no subject
The most I've watched of Downton Abbey was part of a documentary on the 'Making of', where me and Ben looked at each other and went "...why the fuck are we watching this? WE DON'T KNOW ANY OF THESE PEOPLE!"
My British-ineptitude aside, these posts have given me a lot to think about. And fic about...
no subject
And I haven't even seen "Fathers and Suns" yet (hence me only skimming the comments below), so that should tell you something. But yeah,
I really hope they're actually taking this somewhere, rather than just having it be a feature of his character from now on...
no subject
A more likely scenario in terms of canon is that either the relationship was a 'friends with benefits' arrangement and he wanted more OR maybe she really did love him and his insecurities and self-esteem issues just wouldn't let him believe it. Maybe he couldn't convince himself that he was anything more than a substitute for 'her Dave' and that's what scuppered the relationship.
The insinuation in BTE is that Kochanski did have feelings for him - we're told she left not because she was angry, frustrated by his lack of ambition or even looking for her own dimension, but because she couldn't bear watching him self-destruct.
BTW I'm one of those people who strongly suspects Kriss is still on the ship somewhere waiting for him to pull himself together. She'd have to be bonkers to head off into the universe all alone on Blue Midget surely???
no subject
Yeah, I've always thought that. I mean, it's not like Red Dwarf is short on space.
It might be a testament to how bad things were for Kochanski and/or Lister - deep space and loneliness was preferable...wow....