Does Lister Really Have A "Type"?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I read a brief discussion on the official site in which a poster opined that the common opinion that Kochanski 2.0 simply isn't Lister's type may not be true. They pointed out that Lise Yates is "reasonably well spoken" and that he seems quite happy in "Timeslides" with the extremely upper-class Lady Sabrina Mulholland-Jjones.

I've always thought that original Kochanski seemed better suited to him, but as many have noted, we really don't get to know her very well at all. Maybe Chloe's version isn't as ill-suited as we often imagine.

Here comes the slash angle - Saylee recently pointed out that if we discount Lister's ability to fall for someone who's fussy and uptight, we sink our own ship. ;)

Thinking about Doug's thought processes when he decided to bring in Kochanski for Series 7, I realise part of it was to bring in a woman in order to improve the chances of financing for the longed-for film. Implicit in that was to introduce a potential love interest for Lister. I find it fascinating that he ended up with a character who has similarities with early Rimmer. She may be a lot more competent, but she doesn't fit in with the group either - for example, the scene in "Blue" where she tries to interest the others in an opera game is reminiscent in some ways of Rimmer trying to get the party going in "Dimension Jump" and droning on about Risk in "Meltdown".

The salad cream saga also seems the kind of thing Rimmer would get het up about. I find these parallels amusing. :)

Comments

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

Admittedly, the squinch is largely a side-effect of what I believe Chris referred to as "full flare with pursed lips" in one of the series one commentaries, but there is a definite squinchiness involved.

Kochanski's leaving was just short of being fridged - shoving her off to create drama for Lister in BTE, But I'd certainly think that Lister's depression, while definitely a factor, wasn't the only reason she left. She was out of her universe, surrounded by people who were not-quite-her-real-friends, she'd tried to move on by dating in prison but now they're all alone again, with a chronically depressed alternate of the man she loved who acted like he was in love with her but clearly wasn't, living a life of intense boredom, dealing with Kryten's obsessive dislike of her....I'd've taken off too. Since what we learn of her leaving comes from Kryten in retrospect and Dave's screwed up subconscious (THIS is your subconscious of joy squid), watchers who think too hard about these things don't really have any idea what her thought process was for leaving.

...Aaaand that is very off topic of whether or not Lister has a type. Ahem. Sorry.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Good point. I'm going to refer back to this when I need to think about Kochanski's motivations.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm I like that take on Kochanski. That could have worked into some funny bits. Kryten made more sense to me when he'd been reprogrammed in Krytie TV and claimed he'd forgiven Kochanski because now he wants BABIES to take care of than when he was hating on Kochanski for being a possible love interest. I can see his jealousy coming more from someone wanting to clean up after, feed, take care of Lister like a mother would. Hopefully he never sees the vids from Lister's dad, or he might have a meltdown.

Though his treatment of Kochanski was so similiar to how he hated Rimmer that my slash goggles give it the thumbs up.

(Craig Charles truly threw himself into kissing that giant dung beetle. It is a thing of beauty.)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you really want to confuse yourself, consider Kryten's confession comes in the hallucination. Can he be considered a reliable narrator - or is he telling Lister what he needs to hear to cheer up?

Is she really alive, or not?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Very well put. :)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I agree that Lister probably doesn't have a type - my guess is that he goes for girls who are fun to be around and doesn't care too much if they look a certain way or come from a certain background. That's why there was never the chemistry with Kochanski 2.0. She was never written as a fun girl, she was more like a moany nagging mother or wife. I don't think the lack of chemistry had anything to do with the actors, if you look at the outtakes or even the DVD commentaries, Craig and Chloe have far more chemistry off screen than they do on and that's down to poor writing. Let's face it, they were given very few scenes to even start making any kind of chemistry - the relationship was never really explored at all. Interestingly, there are a few minor things in the deleted scenes for S8 that hint at a more intimate/relaxed relationship there but they are very small things.

Does Lister really love her? Yes, I think so. Not for the right reasons perhaps, but he does. The reason he remains so obsessed with her is because she represents hope. If he gives up on her, then what does he have left? (Rimmer, of course!). I also think the point about him being a commitment phobe is relevant. He clings to Kochanski because she's the only woman who ever made him want to settle down, she's the only woman he ever saw or wanted a future with. And now she's the only one left. As far as he sees it, that's got to be fate. Right?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Smeg. Mindfuck. :p

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

It's OK - it's interesting. Especially wondering what kind of joy squid produces the hallucination in "BTE". :/

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Ah, but if as you say, Lister goes for women who aren't hung up on status or appearance, how do you explain L/R? Wouldn't that extend to men, as well? :-D

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Seriously, either Kryten's wrong about it being a joy squid or our lads are seriously smegged up to come up with that hallucination. Unless their subconsciouses are working against each other? Does not compute.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

My personal opinion? When he met Ace and they got on so well, he realised the potential in Rimmer and it stirred subconscious feelings. I know not everyone likes Ace, but he's explicitly represented as "not hung up on status or appearance". ;)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Yes, you'd think Kryten would be pleased at the prospect of Lister and Kochanski getting together for the possibility of kids if nothing else. *Puzzled*

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

There's a group cast photo on Google in which Craig and Chloe definitely have a lot more chemistry than we've seen onscreen. But Doug did rather sabotage himself by writing scenes like the one in "Ouroboros" where Lister gives her his sperm sample and they actually start to connect a bit - then Kryten butts in. Even as a slasher, that pisses me off.

There's also the deleted original ending to "Only The Good" where they save the ship, then drink and dance the conga in celebration. I really wanted to see more of that. :)

I agree that she represents hope. I've actually wondered sometimes why he didn't fixate on Lise Yates instead. Their relationship lasted a lot longer (eight months versus approximately a fortnight) and seems to have been blissful until his commitment issues reared their ugly head. Let's face it, the chances of getting her back are no less minuscule than the chances of getting back original Kochanski.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I remember seeing BTE for the first time, and they said it was a JOY squid and I thought, "Are you KIDDING me?! That is the most depressing joy I have ever seen!" Especially for everyone who isn't Lister. I mean, he had a chance at Kochanski, but everyone else just thought they were going to be killed off by a television writer who would later become a nutter rogue simulant. I'd almost buy a "Better Than Life"ness, with Lister being the one bringing down everyone's group hallucinations with his insecurities.

She seemed more like a Distracting Plotline Until You Snuff It Squid to me.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Some have pointed to Rimmer getting his moment of revenge on Katerina for planning to shut him down, but apart from that there isn't much.

To be fair, you can also nitpick the explanation given at the end of "Back To Reality" - Rimmer's reason for suicidal despair is given as having a richer, more important brother. As opposed to three? :p

Doesn't stop it from being a fabulous episode. :)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Don't forget, one of them dreamed up Katarina, who was going to shut off, eject into space and then nuclear bomb Rimmer. If that was Rimmer's subconscious, he needs more therapy. And if it was from the other lads - that's just cruel.

The entire idea of this being from a JOY squid makes zero sense. Their idea of joy is to be killed by their creator, really? If you analyze too closely (or at all), BTE falls completely apart narratively.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

You know Rimmer was going to off himself in the BTR scenario because he and Lister were brothers - and you don't have those feelings about your brother :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

To quote Cat: "Well, I wasn't going to be the first to say it". ;)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

*stares at icon* oh, my. that's...lovely.

I was going to put a disclaimer on that "unless your last name is Winchester" but I really don't do Dean/Sam :D

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I asked Bayliss to make it from that jpeg you linked to. Isn't it lovely? :D

If you'd like to use it too, it would be fair enough since you put the idea into my head. :)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

No, I'm good. I'm back down to a free account so I only get 4 icons. I really only use two of them anyway :)

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I thought the reason he fixated on Kochanski was largely down to timing - the relationship hadn't been finished long enough for his to get over her when he got put into stasis. If he hadn't got caught with the cat and the accident hadn't happened, maybe she would have come around and they would have had a more successful go of it, or maybe he would have eventually moved on and found someone else to fall in love with.

I wonder if the intensity of his feelings for her also have something to do with his dissatisfaction with his situation, even before the accident. In Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers, it's pretty clear that he hates everything about life on Red Dwarf, and when he does meet her, she becomes the one bright spot in his life, and he falls pretty instantly and intensely in love.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I love that in book canon it's actually Kochanski who makes the first move when she sees Lister trying to work up the courage to approach her. The fact this lovely intelligent girl not only agreed to date him, but actually asked him out was such a huge boost to his self esteem. It even says in the book that whe they were dating he 'magically' became better looking. Of course he didn't really, but it's a clear indication of what the relationship did for his own sense of self worth.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I concur, this icon may be the best thing that's happened to me all week :-)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

True, but that's why he doesnt like Rimmer at first. In my head canon, I don't think Lister has any real feelings for Rimmer bar 'the guy might actually be attractive if he wasn't such a smeghead' until series 4/5, when pity begins to gradually become fondness. Rimmer on the other hand, I think he's been more or less infatuated with Lister since they met, in a very repressed way. It takes Lister a lot longer to see through all the neuroses to 'the nice guy trying to get out'. But, I agree that meeting Ace in S4 was a big part of that leap.