Does Lister Really Have A "Type"?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I read a brief discussion on the official site in which a poster opined that the common opinion that Kochanski 2.0 simply isn't Lister's type may not be true. They pointed out that Lise Yates is "reasonably well spoken" and that he seems quite happy in "Timeslides" with the extremely upper-class Lady Sabrina Mulholland-Jjones.

I've always thought that original Kochanski seemed better suited to him, but as many have noted, we really don't get to know her very well at all. Maybe Chloe's version isn't as ill-suited as we often imagine.

Here comes the slash angle - Saylee recently pointed out that if we discount Lister's ability to fall for someone who's fussy and uptight, we sink our own ship. ;)

Thinking about Doug's thought processes when he decided to bring in Kochanski for Series 7, I realise part of it was to bring in a woman in order to improve the chances of financing for the longed-for film. Implicit in that was to introduce a potential love interest for Lister. I find it fascinating that he ended up with a character who has similarities with early Rimmer. She may be a lot more competent, but she doesn't fit in with the group either - for example, the scene in "Blue" where she tries to interest the others in an opera game is reminiscent in some ways of Rimmer trying to get the party going in "Dimension Jump" and droning on about Risk in "Meltdown".

The salad cream saga also seems the kind of thing Rimmer would get het up about. I find these parallels amusing. :)

Comments

[sallycandance.livejournal.com]

I've never thought about the parallels between Kochanski 2.0 and Rimmer. That's fascinating indeed. Something going on there on a sub-conscious level, Mister Naylor...?!

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I realise it can be interpreted simply as wanting a Rimmer replacement, but what the hell. I prefer my version. ;)

[sallycandance.livejournal.com]

I prefer your version, too ^.~

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Your version is the only one worth considering in this situation, as far as I'm concerned. ;)

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought about those parallels (but I've only seen series 7 once, much like BTE, while I've watched the others a ridiculous number of times), but I like your take on them! I admit to finding Kochanski 2.0's personality grating, but I love Rimmer (while accepting that he's a smeghead). There's something in the delivery, I guess!

As to a type, I really think Lister is the sort of person who's typeless. He would like...whomever he likes, and the next person would probably be fairly different. Lise seemed well spoken and feminine, Kochanski 1.0 was scrappy (as was his image of Camille, but she was really more like Lister than Kochanski 1.0) but intelligent enough to serve as a navigation officer on the bridge , Pete HoweverIt'sSpelled's sister looked like an early 90s swimsuit model, and Hayley Summers was responsible enough to be a bank teller but also had some traditionally "male" interests (as Rimmer gleefully pointed out). He seems more to be the sort of person who likes variety. He falls madly, desperately in love, is obsessed for a while, then loses interest (which is why I prefer the never dated version of his relationship with Kochanski 1.0 to the later retcons, because I think once he was WITH her, the obsession would have passed somewhat). This, of course, leaves the floor open for him to fall in love with a neurotic git, only by that point he's older and in a position where he can't scarper off when he gets bored...plus their relationship has become so complex over the years that he'd be bored out of his skull if he dropped it, even with other people around (a la "Blue" and his clear delight at seeing human Rimmer in "Back in the Red," up to the sort of familial, playful banter of series X).

There was never any real romantic chemistry between Craig and Chloe, so I never bought that he was genuinely in love with Kochanski 2.0. He had more chemistry in one scene with Claire. He seems to be more going through the motions of having his obsession up close and personal, which probably helped take his mind off sending his best friend/worst enemy/pseudo-brother/inadvertent love interest off to die as Ace. All of that was born out to me somewhat with BTE, as much as I disliked it. I got a vibe that Kochanski knew Dave better than Dave did when it came to his obsession with her.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I can say that both Series 7 and "BTE" improve on repeated viewings. And Rimmer is actually in half of Series 7. :)

I think you're right about Lister liking variety - in "Camille" his ideal is basically a female him (same goes for Rimmer and Kryten), but KK 1.0, Lise and Hayley don't seem that similar. There's also a deleted scene from "Dear Dave" where he mentions a fling with a geography teacher who seemed "classy, but behind closed doors she was dirtier than a car mechanic's keyboard!".

What those four do have in common is that they were all youthful flings back when he had a lot more choice and as you say, the freedom to scarper. In relative maturity, his priorities change.

Agree that he seemed to be going through the motions with KK 2.0, except in that scene in "BTE". Craig acted his socks off and brought tears to my eyes.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I don't like the series 7 eps with or without Rimmer (though a couple of the flashbacks are amusing). It falls quite flat for me over all. Lister's too droopy, Kryten's obsession with Lister loses its humor, the Cat is too human, the stories didn't work, the lack of an audience.... I tried to rewatch BTE but winced my way through about half of it before giving it up. Most of the fandom feels about 8 how I feel about 7, but 8 had adorkable bunk scenes that I can watch over and over. It's nothing more than personal opinion. 0_~

I did rewatch the end of BTE this afternoon (thanks, Netflix, because I don't have the DVD for that series!), and although I want to snuggle Lister through the whole thing, I STILL got the vibe that his hallucination of KK2.0, which I assume is from his own subconscious, was telling him that they couldn't be together and, more to the point, they SHOULDN'T be together. While clearly it's playing on his insecurities that he's not good enough for her, I still didn't see indications that Lister loved KK2 for being KK2, rather than just for being A Kristine Kochanski.

So I still take away the impression that his feelings are very real, but it's not because he was truly in love with her. He was looking for someone else in her, or she was a friend and he drove her away, but not that he got to know HER and fell in love with her. And all that's laying aside the fact that she's, you know. His Mum. But again, some of that comes from the fact that Craig and Chloe just never had a real romantic chemistry that worked for me.

As to KK 2.0, I'm with Anonymous below, I think she could have been a good character, but she fell flat largely through bad writing in VII (let's make someone who's uptight and annoying and wears really tight clothes like Rimmer, but make her more likable. Somehow. And it didn't work). They still didn't give her a LOT to work with in 8 because, well, Rimmer was back to be Rimmer so he got all those bits, but she's still more likable.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not particularly keen on VII, VIII and "BTE", but I've found they do improve over time. :) I still prefer I - VI and X.

I kind of agree with your assessment of that scene - much as Lister is clearly suffering and I want to hug him, he does seem to be in love with the idea of Kochanski rather than the specific woman.

The "tight clothes" aspect hadn't occurred to me. *Lol* She' s definitely more likable in VIII. :)

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement with you that I never get the vibe that Lister is in love with KK 2.0 specifically, even during their scene in BTE. Even in Series X, when he's supposed to be searching for her, the things he says about her are things he could be saying about any woman he found attractive. He has more to say about what made him like Hailey Summers - her little quirks, the nose scrunching thing. Could it be more that he's convinced himself he's in love, because of course he must be after being obsessed with her for so long. What else would he feel for her?

You're right though, the chemistry's just not there.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

Sweet hooha, I horribly abused the privilege of using parenthesis in both of those responses. @_@

[(Anonymous)]

Long before I found my slash goggles, it felt to me like Kochanski 2.0 was a blatant attempt to fill the Rimmer shaped hole left by Chris leaving the series. Though she never really managed to fit the empty space left behind, I couldn't help but figure that was the intention, to continue the Rimmer/Lister dynamic without Rimmer. I think that's why I have more of a problem with her in 7 than in 8, cause she's no longer meant to fill Rimmer's spot in 8 so I think she's able to make her own pace in the group.

I do agree with dragonsquill that Lister seemed to be more going through the motions with K2.0(much easier to type on my phone) than being properly interested.

~

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I think the majority of viewers saw her as the Rimmer replacement, much to her detriment, as it would have been to anyone. The odds were so stacked against her, with weaker writing, uncertainty how to pitch her character and the fact that she was replacing Chris, who had the benefit of six and a bit seasons of excellent writing and character development behind him.

Also, he's just really talented. Chloe's a reasonable actress, but she's not Chris. Ironically, one of her best scenes is the only time Rimmer and KK are alone together in "Cassandra". Rimmer may be uncharacteristically lecherous, but it's still a funny scene. I do prefer her in Series 8. :)

[bayliss.livejournal.com]

I can not add anything to this... except that I agree completely. So I'm just going to put this here...



:-)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

The expressions! Barrie may be the man of a thousand faces, but the others aren't too shabby in that department either. :)

[merzky-nadsat.livejournal.com]

I have come to believe that after DNA they were going to keep Kryten human. However, Llewellyn's facial acting was so great he was showing up the others so they quickly rewrote him back to being a mechanoid. :D

I like the idea of Lister not having a type because he is not a fussy dude, except when it comes to having vegetables.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to ponder what would have happened if Kryten had stayed human. This sweet little fic offers a slashy explanation as to why he didn't: http://reddwarfslash.livejournal.com/288970.html

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the problem with Kochanski 2.0 as Lister's love interest isn't so much that she's not his type (something that probably wouldn't carry a lot of weight with him if he had feelings for someone, anyway, even if it was clear he had a type), but that, as dragonsquill says, there's no real romantic chemistry there. Also, maybe the fact that we know that she's there as a potential love interest for Lister makes it feel forced.

The parallels between Rimmer and Kochanski are great.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

....There is also the fact that in the very episode in which they introduced her, they also revealed that she's his mother.

Which is.

Strange.

Even on a show where he had two babies with his own lady-self.

But that just didn't start me off with a "Let's get Listy and his genetic mother together! ROMANCE!" sort of vibe.

(But honestly, Craig had more chemistry with the Polymorph-as-Rimmer's-Mum.)

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I just can't get over that. If they wanted to make her Lister's love interest, then they should have dropped the mother thing altogether.

It's occurring to me now how interesting it would have been to have dropped the love-interest bit and have her trying to act as Lister's mother and him not having it at all. It might also mitigate Kryten's jealous-girlfriend vibe. At least it would make more sense for him to be competitive with someone who might take over caring for Lister.

(Forget Rimmer's Mum, he had more chemistry with the dung beetle-esque psiren.)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I agree that Lister probably doesn't have a type - my guess is that he goes for girls who are fun to be around and doesn't care too much if they look a certain way or come from a certain background. That's why there was never the chemistry with Kochanski 2.0. She was never written as a fun girl, she was more like a moany nagging mother or wife. I don't think the lack of chemistry had anything to do with the actors, if you look at the outtakes or even the DVD commentaries, Craig and Chloe have far more chemistry off screen than they do on and that's down to poor writing. Let's face it, they were given very few scenes to even start making any kind of chemistry - the relationship was never really explored at all. Interestingly, there are a few minor things in the deleted scenes for S8 that hint at a more intimate/relaxed relationship there but they are very small things.

Does Lister really love her? Yes, I think so. Not for the right reasons perhaps, but he does. The reason he remains so obsessed with her is because she represents hope. If he gives up on her, then what does he have left? (Rimmer, of course!). I also think the point about him being a commitment phobe is relevant. He clings to Kochanski because she's the only woman who ever made him want to settle down, she's the only woman he ever saw or wanted a future with. And now she's the only one left. As far as he sees it, that's got to be fate. Right?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Ah, but if as you say, Lister goes for women who aren't hung up on status or appearance, how do you explain L/R? Wouldn't that extend to men, as well? :-D

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

My personal opinion? When he met Ace and they got on so well, he realised the potential in Rimmer and it stirred subconscious feelings. I know not everyone likes Ace, but he's explicitly represented as "not hung up on status or appearance". ;)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

True, but that's why he doesnt like Rimmer at first. In my head canon, I don't think Lister has any real feelings for Rimmer bar 'the guy might actually be attractive if he wasn't such a smeghead' until series 4/5, when pity begins to gradually become fondness. Rimmer on the other hand, I think he's been more or less infatuated with Lister since they met, in a very repressed way. It takes Lister a lot longer to see through all the neuroses to 'the nice guy trying to get out'. But, I agree that meeting Ace in S4 was a big part of that leap.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

There's a group cast photo on Google in which Craig and Chloe definitely have a lot more chemistry than we've seen onscreen. But Doug did rather sabotage himself by writing scenes like the one in "Ouroboros" where Lister gives her his sperm sample and they actually start to connect a bit - then Kryten butts in. Even as a slasher, that pisses me off.

There's also the deleted original ending to "Only The Good" where they save the ship, then drink and dance the conga in celebration. I really wanted to see more of that. :)

I agree that she represents hope. I've actually wondered sometimes why he didn't fixate on Lise Yates instead. Their relationship lasted a lot longer (eight months versus approximately a fortnight) and seems to have been blissful until his commitment issues reared their ugly head. Let's face it, the chances of getting her back are no less minuscule than the chances of getting back original Kochanski.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I thought the reason he fixated on Kochanski was largely down to timing - the relationship hadn't been finished long enough for his to get over her when he got put into stasis. If he hadn't got caught with the cat and the accident hadn't happened, maybe she would have come around and they would have had a more successful go of it, or maybe he would have eventually moved on and found someone else to fall in love with.

I wonder if the intensity of his feelings for her also have something to do with his dissatisfaction with his situation, even before the accident. In Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers, it's pretty clear that he hates everything about life on Red Dwarf, and when he does meet her, she becomes the one bright spot in his life, and he falls pretty instantly and intensely in love.