Does Lister Really Have A "Type"?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I read a brief discussion on the official site in which a poster opined that the common opinion that Kochanski 2.0 simply isn't Lister's type may not be true. They pointed out that Lise Yates is "reasonably well spoken" and that he seems quite happy in "Timeslides" with the extremely upper-class Lady Sabrina Mulholland-Jjones.

I've always thought that original Kochanski seemed better suited to him, but as many have noted, we really don't get to know her very well at all. Maybe Chloe's version isn't as ill-suited as we often imagine.

Here comes the slash angle - Saylee recently pointed out that if we discount Lister's ability to fall for someone who's fussy and uptight, we sink our own ship. ;)

Thinking about Doug's thought processes when he decided to bring in Kochanski for Series 7, I realise part of it was to bring in a woman in order to improve the chances of financing for the longed-for film. Implicit in that was to introduce a potential love interest for Lister. I find it fascinating that he ended up with a character who has similarities with early Rimmer. She may be a lot more competent, but she doesn't fit in with the group either - for example, the scene in "Blue" where she tries to interest the others in an opera game is reminiscent in some ways of Rimmer trying to get the party going in "Dimension Jump" and droning on about Risk in "Meltdown".

The salad cream saga also seems the kind of thing Rimmer would get het up about. I find these parallels amusing. :)

Comments

[sallycandance.livejournal.com]

I've never thought about the parallels between Kochanski 2.0 and Rimmer. That's fascinating indeed. Something going on there on a sub-conscious level, Mister Naylor...?!

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I realise it can be interpreted simply as wanting a Rimmer replacement, but what the hell. I prefer my version. ;)

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought about those parallels (but I've only seen series 7 once, much like BTE, while I've watched the others a ridiculous number of times), but I like your take on them! I admit to finding Kochanski 2.0's personality grating, but I love Rimmer (while accepting that he's a smeghead). There's something in the delivery, I guess!

As to a type, I really think Lister is the sort of person who's typeless. He would like...whomever he likes, and the next person would probably be fairly different. Lise seemed well spoken and feminine, Kochanski 1.0 was scrappy (as was his image of Camille, but she was really more like Lister than Kochanski 1.0) but intelligent enough to serve as a navigation officer on the bridge , Pete HoweverIt'sSpelled's sister looked like an early 90s swimsuit model, and Hayley Summers was responsible enough to be a bank teller but also had some traditionally "male" interests (as Rimmer gleefully pointed out). He seems more to be the sort of person who likes variety. He falls madly, desperately in love, is obsessed for a while, then loses interest (which is why I prefer the never dated version of his relationship with Kochanski 1.0 to the later retcons, because I think once he was WITH her, the obsession would have passed somewhat). This, of course, leaves the floor open for him to fall in love with a neurotic git, only by that point he's older and in a position where he can't scarper off when he gets bored...plus their relationship has become so complex over the years that he'd be bored out of his skull if he dropped it, even with other people around (a la "Blue" and his clear delight at seeing human Rimmer in "Back in the Red," up to the sort of familial, playful banter of series X).

There was never any real romantic chemistry between Craig and Chloe, so I never bought that he was genuinely in love with Kochanski 2.0. He had more chemistry in one scene with Claire. He seems to be more going through the motions of having his obsession up close and personal, which probably helped take his mind off sending his best friend/worst enemy/pseudo-brother/inadvertent love interest off to die as Ace. All of that was born out to me somewhat with BTE, as much as I disliked it. I got a vibe that Kochanski knew Dave better than Dave did when it came to his obsession with her.

[(Anonymous)]

Long before I found my slash goggles, it felt to me like Kochanski 2.0 was a blatant attempt to fill the Rimmer shaped hole left by Chris leaving the series. Though she never really managed to fit the empty space left behind, I couldn't help but figure that was the intention, to continue the Rimmer/Lister dynamic without Rimmer. I think that's why I have more of a problem with her in 7 than in 8, cause she's no longer meant to fill Rimmer's spot in 8 so I think she's able to make her own pace in the group.

I do agree with dragonsquill that Lister seemed to be more going through the motions with K2.0(much easier to type on my phone) than being properly interested.

~

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I can say that both Series 7 and "BTE" improve on repeated viewings. And Rimmer is actually in half of Series 7. :)

I think you're right about Lister liking variety - in "Camille" his ideal is basically a female him (same goes for Rimmer and Kryten), but KK 1.0, Lise and Hayley don't seem that similar. There's also a deleted scene from "Dear Dave" where he mentions a fling with a geography teacher who seemed "classy, but behind closed doors she was dirtier than a car mechanic's keyboard!".

What those four do have in common is that they were all youthful flings back when he had a lot more choice and as you say, the freedom to scarper. In relative maturity, his priorities change.

Agree that he seemed to be going through the motions with KK 2.0, except in that scene in "BTE". Craig acted his socks off and brought tears to my eyes.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I think the majority of viewers saw her as the Rimmer replacement, much to her detriment, as it would have been to anyone. The odds were so stacked against her, with weaker writing, uncertainty how to pitch her character and the fact that she was replacing Chris, who had the benefit of six and a bit seasons of excellent writing and character development behind him.

Also, he's just really talented. Chloe's a reasonable actress, but she's not Chris. Ironically, one of her best scenes is the only time Rimmer and KK are alone together in "Cassandra". Rimmer may be uncharacteristically lecherous, but it's still a funny scene. I do prefer her in Series 8. :)

[sallycandance.livejournal.com]

I prefer your version, too ^.~

[bayliss.livejournal.com]

I can not add anything to this... except that I agree completely. So I'm just going to put this here...



:-)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

The expressions! Barrie may be the man of a thousand faces, but the others aren't too shabby in that department either. :)

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I don't like the series 7 eps with or without Rimmer (though a couple of the flashbacks are amusing). It falls quite flat for me over all. Lister's too droopy, Kryten's obsession with Lister loses its humor, the Cat is too human, the stories didn't work, the lack of an audience.... I tried to rewatch BTE but winced my way through about half of it before giving it up. Most of the fandom feels about 8 how I feel about 7, but 8 had adorkable bunk scenes that I can watch over and over. It's nothing more than personal opinion. 0_~

I did rewatch the end of BTE this afternoon (thanks, Netflix, because I don't have the DVD for that series!), and although I want to snuggle Lister through the whole thing, I STILL got the vibe that his hallucination of KK2.0, which I assume is from his own subconscious, was telling him that they couldn't be together and, more to the point, they SHOULDN'T be together. While clearly it's playing on his insecurities that he's not good enough for her, I still didn't see indications that Lister loved KK2 for being KK2, rather than just for being A Kristine Kochanski.

So I still take away the impression that his feelings are very real, but it's not because he was truly in love with her. He was looking for someone else in her, or she was a friend and he drove her away, but not that he got to know HER and fell in love with her. And all that's laying aside the fact that she's, you know. His Mum. But again, some of that comes from the fact that Craig and Chloe just never had a real romantic chemistry that worked for me.

As to KK 2.0, I'm with Anonymous below, I think she could have been a good character, but she fell flat largely through bad writing in VII (let's make someone who's uptight and annoying and wears really tight clothes like Rimmer, but make her more likable. Somehow. And it didn't work). They still didn't give her a LOT to work with in 8 because, well, Rimmer was back to be Rimmer so he got all those bits, but she's still more likable.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

Sweet hooha, I horribly abused the privilege of using parenthesis in both of those responses. @_@

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not particularly keen on VII, VIII and "BTE", but I've found they do improve over time. :) I still prefer I - VI and X.

I kind of agree with your assessment of that scene - much as Lister is clearly suffering and I want to hug him, he does seem to be in love with the idea of Kochanski rather than the specific woman.

The "tight clothes" aspect hadn't occurred to me. *Lol* She' s definitely more likable in VIII. :)

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I'm fairly certain some woman in the costume department sobbed buckets because she no longer got to spray pant pants on Chris Barrie every day (I do not believe there is another way to get him in those v-vii velour trousers), and they tried to make her feel better by putting Chloe in eye-murdering bright red plastic, but it just wasn't the same.

I understand, costume lady. I'm with'ya. Have a hanky.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

This is a most amusing image. :D

[merzky-nadsat.livejournal.com]

I have come to believe that after DNA they were going to keep Kryten human. However, Llewellyn's facial acting was so great he was showing up the others so they quickly rewrote him back to being a mechanoid. :D

I like the idea of Lister not having a type because he is not a fussy dude, except when it comes to having vegetables.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to ponder what would have happened if Kryten had stayed human. This sweet little fic offers a slashy explanation as to why he didn't: http://reddwarfslash.livejournal.com/288970.html

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Now that is one lovely, lovely image. Chris, bend over and spread 'em --- so we can get the spray paint just there...yeah...that's it...

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the problem with Kochanski 2.0 as Lister's love interest isn't so much that she's not his type (something that probably wouldn't carry a lot of weight with him if he had feelings for someone, anyway, even if it was clear he had a type), but that, as dragonsquill says, there's no real romantic chemistry there. Also, maybe the fact that we know that she's there as a potential love interest for Lister makes it feel forced.

The parallels between Rimmer and Kochanski are great.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Your version is the only one worth considering in this situation, as far as I'm concerned. ;)

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement with you that I never get the vibe that Lister is in love with KK 2.0 specifically, even during their scene in BTE. Even in Series X, when he's supposed to be searching for her, the things he says about her are things he could be saying about any woman he found attractive. He has more to say about what made him like Hailey Summers - her little quirks, the nose scrunching thing. Could it be more that he's convinced himself he's in love, because of course he must be after being obsessed with her for so long. What else would he feel for her?

You're right though, the chemistry's just not there.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I burst out laughing when I read this. What an image.

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

I would just like to say that my favorite thing about the nose squinching story is that Rimmer's reaction to Lister's description of her adorable nose squinching was to squinch his nose at how annoying adorable-squinchy-nose stories are.

:)

I think that being obsessed with Kochanski helped keep him from being depressed that there were NO women at all...because that was okay, he only wanted ONE woman anyway. And it gave him something to focus on and fantasize about when there was nothing else to do day after day. By the time he met 2.0, it was so ingrained in his personality and his how-I-stay-saneness that he just couldn't let it go, even though he's not really in love with her at all. Then, when she left, it was back to having something to focus on other than the situation they're in.

On the other hand, I don't think he's consciously aware of that. He really believes that he's mad about her because he's convinced himself he is. (And, with my slash goggles on, because he doesn't wanna face what's really up with his metaphorical cardiac organ).

[dragonsquill.livejournal.com]

....There is also the fact that in the very episode in which they introduced her, they also revealed that she's his mother.

Which is.

Strange.

Even on a show where he had two babies with his own lady-self.

But that just didn't start me off with a "Let's get Listy and his genetic mother together! ROMANCE!" sort of vibe.

(But honestly, Craig had more chemistry with the Polymorph-as-Rimmer's-Mum.)

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I never noticed Rimmer's nose-squinching. I'll have to keep an eye out for it. ;)

As for the rest, yes, what you said exactly. He's convinced himself that he wants one thing and hasn't bothered (or has deliberately not done) examining whether that's still what he wants. You're right that it's part of how he's kept himself sane, but it couldn't have been working that well if his self-destructive behaviour was enough to drive Kochanski off before BTE.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

I just can't get over that. If they wanted to make her Lister's love interest, then they should have dropped the mother thing altogether.

It's occurring to me now how interesting it would have been to have dropped the love-interest bit and have her trying to act as Lister's mother and him not having it at all. It might also mitigate Kryten's jealous-girlfriend vibe. At least it would make more sense for him to be competitive with someone who might take over caring for Lister.

(Forget Rimmer's Mum, he had more chemistry with the dung beetle-esque psiren.)