Head Canons And Lister's Sexuality

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

We all have them, but some are more deeply entrenched than others.  The recent plethora of BDSM fic (thank you, Kronette and Felineranger) made me realise that I have problems imagining Lister as a natural, dyed in the wool submissive, which *spoiler* is a major aspect of "Lessons In Heroics", even though it's an alternate version of him.

(Kronette, this is not a criticism of your fic in any way.  You can write whatever the hell you like and I'm finding the story riveting regardless.) :)

Those who are following this story will know that, on the list of disquieting aspects, an alternate version of Lister being an enthusiastic sub is so far down it shouldn't even register, but somehow it does for me.  I think it's because his usual character is so anti rules and regulations that it's hard to imagine BDSM being a fundamental part of his sexuality.  Which isn't to say I can't see him enjoying it (as in "FSOS") but enjoying and needing are different.

I apologise in advance if my ramblings offend anyone.  I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with being a natural sub or Dom, just that it's not how I interpret his character.  I can imagine either of Rimmer though.

Does anyone else have head canons which you thought were casual until you read a fic which contradicted them?

Comments

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

As you know, I'm totally with you on the subby Lister thing. :)

For me though, it's Rimmer's sexuality. I've mentioned it before, but I find it really hard to imagine him as anything other than gay or asexual (and if so, homoromantic). And it simply didn't occur to me that anyone would think otherwise until I came across fic in which he happily is attracted to women. And before anyone mentions him happily being attracted to women in canon, well, no, we see him having SEX with women in canon, and doing a whole lot of what I personally have always seen as obviously "protesting too much". But I won't get into an essay about that here. *looks around* Unless anyone wants me to. :p

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

It does surprise me a bit when Rimmer is portrayed like he's never even considered the concept two men being together. My interpretation of Rimmer's canonical homophobia/sissyphobia is that since it's mostly (all?) aimed at Ace, it's a manifestation of pettiness and jealousy. You could also argue that he's in denial about some aspect of his own sexuality. However, I don't take all this to be a reflection of his overall worldview. There was the (admittedly unused and throwaway) reference in The End to a gay couple, to which all Rimmer said was "I think they split up before they died", not "ew, they were gay, why", and this was when his characterisation was in its infancy, i.e., as a total bastard.

As for the D/S issue, while I have my own take, it doesn't usually bother me when someone writes an opposing interpretation. Personalities outside the bedroom can be and are often deceiving; certain experiences, rather than traits, might be correlated with certain preferences, maybe. Also, there are degrees of dominance and submission. Even the Lister in Heroics is submissive primarily in terms of romance and sex, not so much in other areas like some who are in 24/7 arrangements, so I don't see his submission as particularly regulation-based. This is my reading, of course, and kronette might have something different in mind.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Oh, here's another, very boring one: It's always DAVID Lister, to me. Not Dave. That may be my background; we don't use abbreviated names in Scandinavia; if you learn that someone's name is a particular thing, it feels odd to refer to them as anything else. But I don't think it's that; not really (I use an abbreviation for my own name with English speakers, so you know...) - I think it's more that "Dave" feels like something someone who doesn't know him well enough would assume he wants to be called. It makes sense for Holly to call him that, but notably, Petersen doesn't. Again, that could be related to the above, but, well. That's a deep-set fanon/headcanon thing for me; I would never consider having Rimmer call him Dave. :p

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

I think for me, Lister is very adaptable to whoever he's with but also someone that strays very far from extremes. He pings my "switch" button hard, so I can see him (and have written him) subbing in a D/s situation, but not exclusively and not all the time. I don't think he's the type of person who would thrive in a 24/7 or total power exchange situation either as a Dom or a sub.

As for having my headcanon fucked with -- well, the big example I have comes from Doug Naylor. Before Duct Soup, I always saw Lister as having a "whatever" attitude towards gender and just being attracted to whoever he was attracted to. I still don't see him as having or even considering a monosexual identity but his attitude about it is probably not as conscious or as nuanced as I, the viewer (who is also writer, who is also a queer woman), would like it to be. I don't think he would see himself as being "romantically attracted to multiple genders," so much as just Romantic.

He's got this wonderful nurturing instinct that he turns on just about everyone apart from Kochanski, coupled with an odd insecurity around people he's apparently infatuated with (Kochanski). The infatuations themselves appear to have little staying power when matched against caring for someone he likes (I know they're bunked in different cell blocks, but look how quickly the fixation on Kochanski stalls when he has a Rimmer to irritate in series VIII) and, instead, thrive in a vacuum such as the one created by the physical absence of that person (for that matter, he dreams about kissing Rimmer after Rimmer's gone).

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

My take on Lister's sexuality is kind of complicated, in that I usually write him within the 'submissive' role in fic but don't actually consider him a submissive person. I can see him being very experimental though, and willing to try a lot of different things, including both aspects of D/S to a degree.

See, as in many things, Lister and Rimmer are polar opposites. Rimmer craves power and authority because he's spent his whole life being pushed down, whereas Lister I think shies away from serious responsibility because he's had to look after himself from a relatively young age. Rimmer has the desire to lead but not the capability, Lister has the capability but not the desire.

Let's look at Lister's early fantasy of marriage to Kochanski as an example. She was going to wear a white dress and ride the horses and he would take care of everything else. Because why wouldn't he? He always has. As the series goes on, it is always Lister who has to step up, always him who takes charge. He does it automatically. In Rimmerworld, we're told that he has been hiding the severity of their situation from his crewmates, even going so far as to rig the readouts so they won't worry. He doesn't have to, but he takes it on himself to shoulder the responsibility alone. Because he doesn't trust anyone else.

If Lister has any kind of submissive desires, that's where they stem from. Not necessarily wanting someone to dominate him, but wanting someone to look after him. He has a hard time admitting it, and even harder time trusting someone enough to let them do it, but once he reaches that point he becomes almost childlike. Take his relationship with Kryten for example - he starts out being very reluctant to let Kryten do ANYTHING for him. By the time we hit S7, Kryten has become a fully fledged mother figure, even cutting up his toast 'just like you asked for, Sir'. When given the opportunity, Lister regresses to a blanket-wrapped, video game playing overgrown kid. With the right person, in the right circumstances, if he felt truly safe, I think Lister could be very submissive. He just needs the right person to lift that weight off his shoulders.