Head Canons And Lister's Sexuality

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

We all have them, but some are more deeply entrenched than others.  The recent plethora of BDSM fic (thank you, Kronette and Felineranger) made me realise that I have problems imagining Lister as a natural, dyed in the wool submissive, which *spoiler* is a major aspect of "Lessons In Heroics", even though it's an alternate version of him.

(Kronette, this is not a criticism of your fic in any way.  You can write whatever the hell you like and I'm finding the story riveting regardless.) :)

Those who are following this story will know that, on the list of disquieting aspects, an alternate version of Lister being an enthusiastic sub is so far down it shouldn't even register, but somehow it does for me.  I think it's because his usual character is so anti rules and regulations that it's hard to imagine BDSM being a fundamental part of his sexuality.  Which isn't to say I can't see him enjoying it (as in "FSOS") but enjoying and needing are different.

I apologise in advance if my ramblings offend anyone.  I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with being a natural sub or Dom, just that it's not how I interpret his character.  I can imagine either of Rimmer though.

Does anyone else have head canons which you thought were casual until you read a fic which contradicted them?

Comments

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

My take on Lister's sexuality is kind of complicated, in that I usually write him within the 'submissive' role in fic but don't actually consider him a submissive person. I can see him being very experimental though, and willing to try a lot of different things, including both aspects of D/S to a degree.

See, as in many things, Lister and Rimmer are polar opposites. Rimmer craves power and authority because he's spent his whole life being pushed down, whereas Lister I think shies away from serious responsibility because he's had to look after himself from a relatively young age. Rimmer has the desire to lead but not the capability, Lister has the capability but not the desire.

Let's look at Lister's early fantasy of marriage to Kochanski as an example. She was going to wear a white dress and ride the horses and he would take care of everything else. Because why wouldn't he? He always has. As the series goes on, it is always Lister who has to step up, always him who takes charge. He does it automatically. In Rimmerworld, we're told that he has been hiding the severity of their situation from his crewmates, even going so far as to rig the readouts so they won't worry. He doesn't have to, but he takes it on himself to shoulder the responsibility alone. Because he doesn't trust anyone else.

If Lister has any kind of submissive desires, that's where they stem from. Not necessarily wanting someone to dominate him, but wanting someone to look after him. He has a hard time admitting it, and even harder time trusting someone enough to let them do it, but once he reaches that point he becomes almost childlike. Take his relationship with Kryten for example - he starts out being very reluctant to let Kryten do ANYTHING for him. By the time we hit S7, Kryten has become a fully fledged mother figure, even cutting up his toast 'just like you asked for, Sir'. When given the opportunity, Lister regresses to a blanket-wrapped, video game playing overgrown kid. With the right person, in the right circumstances, if he felt truly safe, I think Lister could be very submissive. He just needs the right person to lift that weight off his shoulders.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

<3 Very similar to my view.

I think (this is my related rambling now, not to put words in your mouth) he and Rimmer differ in how far they're initially willing to go with their own bodies and sexuality. This is part of why I tend to write Lister as bottoming and/or taking on a submissive role, at least to start — I see him saying "This feels good, I want to do more" without agonising too much over his masculinity, etc. Within the same background of love/trust/safety in which this happens, Rimmer could also enjoy doing subby things, but it might take some time.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Obviously when I refer to being submissive, I'm not only referring to who goes on top. But I agree that it's much easier to imagine Lister responding to what his body enjoys without freaking out over whether it lessens his manhood and all that crap. I wonder actually if his sex life with Lise Yates, which we're told was fantastic, might have involved her taking the lead sometimes. ;)

Whereas Rimmer would need a lot more coaxing to even engage in man-on-man action let alone anything more complicated.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely. I was trying to convey the separation with the "and/or". :) As a follow-up, Lister (IMO) would be more willing to be vulnerable as well, emotionally and sexually. Such a romantic. :p

Domme-ish Lise Yates...now that's an idea.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

http://starbuggers.livejournal.com/317.html?thread=127293#t127293

*Cough* Kink Meme prompt. *Cough* ;)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think Listy definitely appreciates a lady who can take charge now and then. Pete Tranters sister, anyone?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Good point - the actress was dressed rather like a dominatrix, even setting aside the way she confidently took command. And that was a Psiren doing things it knew would turn him on. ;)

The more I think about Lister's sexuality the harder it is to categorise. Let's just say "flexible and adaptable". :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That's a fascinating take on it and does make me understand the psychology behind submission a little more (or at least one possible reason for it).

(In the context of "Heroics", it's obviously not surprising that having fallen hard for Rimmer at a very young age, Lister would go into serious denial that anything was wrong once he resurrected him as a hologram. I have confused feelings about the whole thing and probably need to reread.)

Returning to our Lister, that's a powerful argument and makes more sense if you emphasise the "caring for" aspect rather than the "domination" one.

I should probably add that I have yet to stop reading a fic because it clashes with my headcanon. If it's worth reading it keeps my attention regardless. :)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I think this is an absolutely perfect way of looking at the dynamic that the two of them have. I bow down to your incredible characterizations. :D