Head Canons And Lister's Sexuality

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

We all have them, but some are more deeply entrenched than others.  The recent plethora of BDSM fic (thank you, Kronette and Felineranger) made me realise that I have problems imagining Lister as a natural, dyed in the wool submissive, which *spoiler* is a major aspect of "Lessons In Heroics", even though it's an alternate version of him.

(Kronette, this is not a criticism of your fic in any way.  You can write whatever the hell you like and I'm finding the story riveting regardless.) :)

Those who are following this story will know that, on the list of disquieting aspects, an alternate version of Lister being an enthusiastic sub is so far down it shouldn't even register, but somehow it does for me.  I think it's because his usual character is so anti rules and regulations that it's hard to imagine BDSM being a fundamental part of his sexuality.  Which isn't to say I can't see him enjoying it (as in "FSOS") but enjoying and needing are different.

I apologise in advance if my ramblings offend anyone.  I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with being a natural sub or Dom, just that it's not how I interpret his character.  I can imagine either of Rimmer though.

Does anyone else have head canons which you thought were casual until you read a fic which contradicted them?

Comments

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

As you know, I'm totally with you on the subby Lister thing. :)

For me though, it's Rimmer's sexuality. I've mentioned it before, but I find it really hard to imagine him as anything other than gay or asexual (and if so, homoromantic). And it simply didn't occur to me that anyone would think otherwise until I came across fic in which he happily is attracted to women. And before anyone mentions him happily being attracted to women in canon, well, no, we see him having SEX with women in canon, and doing a whole lot of what I personally have always seen as obviously "protesting too much". But I won't get into an essay about that here. *looks around* Unless anyone wants me to. :p

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I more or less agree with you regarding Rimmer - I certainly view him as overwhelmingly attracted to men rather than women, but it is canon that he cared for Nirvanah, even if he had to be dragged to her room like a nervous puppy. :p

I can also see a fair amount for evidence for viewing him as asexual and homoromantic. Please do get into an essay about his sexuality if you're so inclined. ;)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Well, that's just it - cared for. Of course he cared for her, but I have such a hard time seeing that affection as sexual or romantic. Even if I had seen the character as having any sort of attraction to women.

Not to go off on a tangent - though I suppose it's still perfectly on topic - LONG before I was into slash or even fic; when I first saw that episode as a child, and later as a young teen, the idea that Rimmer would somehow fall in love with Nirvanah that quickly never sat right with me. I distinctly remember being utterly annoyed by the implication. So I think it's clear that it can't be love, though I'm equally certain that someone like Rimmer, so canonically inexperienced and uncertain about his identity on so many levels, and so eager to be normal and conform, might see it that way.

Hee, I'll see what I come up with. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If I've learned anything in 30 years of fandoms, it's that if there's something you can't imagine a character doing, someone else will. That's just the way of humans. ;-)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

*Buffy quote* "Can she cram complex issues into a nutshell or what?" :D

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

It does surprise me a bit when Rimmer is portrayed like he's never even considered the concept two men being together. My interpretation of Rimmer's canonical homophobia/sissyphobia is that since it's mostly (all?) aimed at Ace, it's a manifestation of pettiness and jealousy. You could also argue that he's in denial about some aspect of his own sexuality. However, I don't take all this to be a reflection of his overall worldview. There was the (admittedly unused and throwaway) reference in The End to a gay couple, to which all Rimmer said was "I think they split up before they died", not "ew, they were gay, why", and this was when his characterisation was in its infancy, i.e., as a total bastard.

As for the D/S issue, while I have my own take, it doesn't usually bother me when someone writes an opposing interpretation. Personalities outside the bedroom can be and are often deceiving; certain experiences, rather than traits, might be correlated with certain preferences, maybe. Also, there are degrees of dominance and submission. Even the Lister in Heroics is submissive primarily in terms of romance and sex, not so much in other areas like some who are in 24/7 arrangements, so I don't see his submission as particularly regulation-based. This is my reading, of course, and kronette might have something different in mind.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I interpret Rimmer's homophobia (as displayed most strikingly in "DJ") as partly jealousy of Ace but also internalised self-hatred, sadly. His upbringing is also a major part of it. I have wondered whether Grant Naylor simply made a mistake when they briefly brought back Sam Murray in "Holoship" - as in, they either forgot or didn't care about the cut scene. It's possible that Sam was originally intended to be short for Samantha. Although Andrew Ellard bringing up the question in the Series V booklet does pretty much say: "Go ahead, slashers!". ;)

I realise I don't know that much about D/s relationships and am probably projecting my own assumptions a bit. FWIW, I found the initial portrayal of the relationship between alternate Rimmer and Lister in "Heroics" to be reasonably convincing - it was only towards the end of the latest chapter when Lister became more and more passive and seemed to stop having a life of his own at all that I began to think it was OOC. I realise that there's almost certainly more to that than meets the eye and I await the final chapter with bated breath.

(Kronette, I hope you don't mind having your WIP discussed here. I'm only doing so because it's gripping me so much.) :)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Could you explain this Sam Murray business janamelie? I don't have the show on DVD so I've missed out on a lot of background information and extras. Just curious what the cut scene was?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

The extras packed versions of the Series I - VIII DVDs have lovely booklets about the making of each series written by Andrew Ellard who's the script editor on "BTE" and Series X and also ran the official website for about a decade.

This is a direct quote from the V booklet: "Briefly revived in "Holoship", it came as a surprise that Sam was male. In the original pilot script - and Series I's deleted funeral scene [from "The End"] - deceased crew member "Sam Murray" is said to be dating "Rick Thesen". Possibly Red Dwarf's first gay couple?"

If you remember, Felineranger took that interpretation and ran with it in "FSOS". ;)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Oh, here's another, very boring one: It's always DAVID Lister, to me. Not Dave. That may be my background; we don't use abbreviated names in Scandinavia; if you learn that someone's name is a particular thing, it feels odd to refer to them as anything else. But I don't think it's that; not really (I use an abbreviation for my own name with English speakers, so you know...) - I think it's more that "Dave" feels like something someone who doesn't know him well enough would assume he wants to be called. It makes sense for Holly to call him that, but notably, Petersen doesn't. Again, that could be related to the above, but, well. That's a deep-set fanon/headcanon thing for me; I would never consider having Rimmer call him Dave. :p

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I usually don't have Rimmer call him Dave (although I did in an AU fic where they were married), but only because I think of him as Lister first and I think Rimmer does too. The moment where he calls him Dave in "Marooned" does rather back up your theory.

Although I'm trying to remember whether Chen or Selby ever call him Dave. I always thought Petersen didn't because English isn't his first language...

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Doesn't Lister refer to himself as Dave? Other people...I think Chen/Selby calls him Dave in Back in the Red, and Kochanski2 always calls him Dave, which he accepts (and there's "Will you stop calling your boyfriend Dave? I'M Dave. He's the anti-Lister."). Whether Rimmer would call him Dave...eh. In a romantic context, I see it working as a sporadic pet name.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Well, like I said to Vero below, it's not really about which name he is most often called, or even which name he claims to prefer. It's more about what I feel the names represent in different contexts. And as you point out, who says it matters too.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Book!canon suggests that he prefers Dave. In Last Human he tells Kochanski not to call him David. It also tends to be how he refers to himself throughout the show.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

That isn't really the impression I was left with, but then again, like I said below, it's not really about frequency of usage; it's about what I feel the names represents. What I'm getting at is that "Dave Lister" is a slightly different person, in Lister's mind, than "David Lister" and he likes and dislikes both, for various reasons. But to me, "David Lister" is closer to who he "really" is. That's a terrible explanation, lol.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

While canon suggests "Dave" is preferred, to be fair, it also suggests "Arnold" is preferred ... and I just can't do it. I much prefer Arn or Arnie, or something else. Especially since I write mainly romance-related with the character. "Arnold" is about as sexy and appealing as dish soap. (People named Arnold can calm the hell right down, because I feel the same way about "Gary" since it's my dad's name.)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I was struggling to formulate a reply to all of the above, and here you go, taking the words right out of my mouth. This isn't really about looking at canonical evidence of who calls him what and how often, it's more a gut feeling based on the impressions I've gotten from the show in general.

Also, it's not really about what Lister prefers to be called, but rather what I feel the names represent to him consciously or not. And who says it matters. I'm not sure if that's any clearer than what Vero said much more succinctly. :p

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I can't think of them calling one another anything but Lister and Rimmer. Maybe it's unrealistic especially since I know Rimmer doesn't like his last name, but I just can't HEAR them any other way. My fanwank explanation for my own fics is that Rimmer loves Lister so much that he actually starts to LIKE how his name sounds when it comes from Lister's lips. :D

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

No, I do that too. It's not unrealistic at all; it's what they call one another, it's their names for one another. Names are important, and interesting (to me, certainly, as I'm sure is overtly evident by now :p). Lister calling Rimmer "Rimmer" is different from other people calling him that. That's even lampshaded in canon; "Rimmer, to rhyme with scum." And I suppose, to Rimmer, reclaiming something that was forced upon him - his name - might be a good thing. I personally don't think Rimmer minds either way what people call him, TBH. So long as it's actually his name. ;)

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

Well, Rimmer does call him David after being drained in "Polymorph."

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oh, and then Davy-Boy in Emohawk! A LOT. (I'm sorry, but the way being "Ace" gives Rimmer leave to fawn and hover over Lister with such unabashed adoration in Emohawk will forever be one of my favorite things about Series 6, LOL.)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Roadstergal took that to its logical conclusion in this fic, which you've no doubt read but I'll link to it here anyway as it's way back in the archives and there's bound to be someone who hasn't. http://www.roadstergal.info/misc/ace.htm

I'll have to watch those scenes in "Emohawk" again and count the endearments. :D

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

It really is adorable! And just a bit scary how quick Rimmer is to sacrifice himself (and Cat!) to spare Lister getting attacked by the Emohawk.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Just echoing this. And Lister's returning, "What a guy!" adoration back at Ace. :D

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

I think for me, Lister is very adaptable to whoever he's with but also someone that strays very far from extremes. He pings my "switch" button hard, so I can see him (and have written him) subbing in a D/s situation, but not exclusively and not all the time. I don't think he's the type of person who would thrive in a 24/7 or total power exchange situation either as a Dom or a sub.

As for having my headcanon fucked with -- well, the big example I have comes from Doug Naylor. Before Duct Soup, I always saw Lister as having a "whatever" attitude towards gender and just being attracted to whoever he was attracted to. I still don't see him as having or even considering a monosexual identity but his attitude about it is probably not as conscious or as nuanced as I, the viewer (who is also writer, who is also a queer woman), would like it to be. I don't think he would see himself as being "romantically attracted to multiple genders," so much as just Romantic.

He's got this wonderful nurturing instinct that he turns on just about everyone apart from Kochanski, coupled with an odd insecurity around people he's apparently infatuated with (Kochanski). The infatuations themselves appear to have little staying power when matched against caring for someone he likes (I know they're bunked in different cell blocks, but look how quickly the fixation on Kochanski stalls when he has a Rimmer to irritate in series VIII) and, instead, thrive in a vacuum such as the one created by the physical absence of that person (for that matter, he dreams about kissing Rimmer after Rimmer's gone).

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Your first paragraph is precisely what I meant to say but didn't quite know enough about D/s to have the right words. Lister does indeed strike me as a switch, happy to experiment and please a partner but not rigid in his sexual preferences. I love that fic of yours, btw. :)

Ah, "Duct Soup". On the one hand it gave us Lister in those longjohns; on the other it fucked with a lot of people's interpretation of his character. (Not just slashers; I've read comments on TOS about how OOC some posters find it.)

The good news is we can write fics to get around it, I suppose. "Nurturing" is a good word to describe him and one of the reasons why m-preg rather suits him. ;)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Nurturing is a perfect word for Lister. I've yet to write any fics about Lister's pregnancy, but I vow to one day.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Kms_726 has written a lot of fic about Lister being a parent to Jim and Bexley as she loves the idea of it. She's on hiatus for several more months but when she returns I shall recommend "50 More Shades Of Smeg" to her. ;)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Is her stuff on AO3? I don't know that I've read any of it, I'm not recognizing the username.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That'll be because she's been more into "Supernatural" lately and by the looks of it hasn't got around to uploading her RD fics there, apart from this one. Officially it's gen, but it does involve Rimmer and Lister being forced to share a grotty hotel room. It's funny. :) http://archiveofourown.org/works/162879

And here's one of her Jim and Bexley fics. You can find more on the RD Fanfic comm which is for gen and het: http://reddwarffanfic.livejournal.com/24463.html

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Just started reading Planet Leave, thanks for recommending it. It's very funny! :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Glad to be of service. :)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Yes, Lister's being uncomfortable with the idea of an alternate version of himself being gay didn't seem to really jibe with the Lister we'd grown to love. Also his fawning over Kochanski never sat well with me. He's far too charismatic, confident and cocky to realistically believe he'd be so fixated on a woman he only dated for WEEKS who wound up dumping him.

I just pretend that a lot of things in series VII didn't happen. Apart from Lister's long johns.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I suppose you could argue his fixation on KK is rooted in his unsettled childhood. Although it was a loving one until the age of 13 when his Gran died, the thought of (we're told in this ep) chubby teenage Lister being uprooted for the second or third time after the deaths of his adoptive parents and plunged into the environment of social care is poignant. It explains his longing for stability IMO.

This may be a case of the actor's natural confidence and charisma clashing with the writing of his character. You could say the same about the fact that we're expected to believe someone who looks like Chris has only encountered one person in 31 years prepared to overlook his personality long enough for a quickie. ;)

(Looking back at that, I'm not suggesting that conventionally attractive people must inevitably have sexual experience, just that Chris's legion of rl fans makes Rimmer's "loser" persona a bit hard to swallow sometimes.) :p

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

"This may be a case of the actor's natural confidence and charisma clashing with the writing of his character."

This exactly. I think as the show progressed they allowed Craig's natural charisma to mold the character of Lister a bit more. He started off being so much more of a bum, but became quite cool as the show progressed.

Chris is gorgeous in my eyes, but I can see where people who go for the more typical type of a "heartthrob" ie: Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Channing Tatum sorts, wouldn't get what we see in him. Chris is good-looking, but not in a conventional way. Plus he was quite skinny at the start of the series which didn't really jibe with the stereotypical "hunky" thing that was considered attractive in the late 80s early 90s. Not everyone who looks at those flaring nostrils goes weak in the knees. ;-)

I sure do though.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

My take on Lister's sexuality is kind of complicated, in that I usually write him within the 'submissive' role in fic but don't actually consider him a submissive person. I can see him being very experimental though, and willing to try a lot of different things, including both aspects of D/S to a degree.

See, as in many things, Lister and Rimmer are polar opposites. Rimmer craves power and authority because he's spent his whole life being pushed down, whereas Lister I think shies away from serious responsibility because he's had to look after himself from a relatively young age. Rimmer has the desire to lead but not the capability, Lister has the capability but not the desire.

Let's look at Lister's early fantasy of marriage to Kochanski as an example. She was going to wear a white dress and ride the horses and he would take care of everything else. Because why wouldn't he? He always has. As the series goes on, it is always Lister who has to step up, always him who takes charge. He does it automatically. In Rimmerworld, we're told that he has been hiding the severity of their situation from his crewmates, even going so far as to rig the readouts so they won't worry. He doesn't have to, but he takes it on himself to shoulder the responsibility alone. Because he doesn't trust anyone else.

If Lister has any kind of submissive desires, that's where they stem from. Not necessarily wanting someone to dominate him, but wanting someone to look after him. He has a hard time admitting it, and even harder time trusting someone enough to let them do it, but once he reaches that point he becomes almost childlike. Take his relationship with Kryten for example - he starts out being very reluctant to let Kryten do ANYTHING for him. By the time we hit S7, Kryten has become a fully fledged mother figure, even cutting up his toast 'just like you asked for, Sir'. When given the opportunity, Lister regresses to a blanket-wrapped, video game playing overgrown kid. With the right person, in the right circumstances, if he felt truly safe, I think Lister could be very submissive. He just needs the right person to lift that weight off his shoulders.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

<3 Very similar to my view.

I think (this is my related rambling now, not to put words in your mouth) he and Rimmer differ in how far they're initially willing to go with their own bodies and sexuality. This is part of why I tend to write Lister as bottoming and/or taking on a submissive role, at least to start — I see him saying "This feels good, I want to do more" without agonising too much over his masculinity, etc. Within the same background of love/trust/safety in which this happens, Rimmer could also enjoy doing subby things, but it might take some time.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Obviously when I refer to being submissive, I'm not only referring to who goes on top. But I agree that it's much easier to imagine Lister responding to what his body enjoys without freaking out over whether it lessens his manhood and all that crap. I wonder actually if his sex life with Lise Yates, which we're told was fantastic, might have involved her taking the lead sometimes. ;)

Whereas Rimmer would need a lot more coaxing to even engage in man-on-man action let alone anything more complicated.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely. I was trying to convey the separation with the "and/or". :) As a follow-up, Lister (IMO) would be more willing to be vulnerable as well, emotionally and sexually. Such a romantic. :p

Domme-ish Lise Yates...now that's an idea.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

http://starbuggers.livejournal.com/317.html?thread=127293#t127293

*Cough* Kink Meme prompt. *Cough* ;)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think Listy definitely appreciates a lady who can take charge now and then. Pete Tranters sister, anyone?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Good point - the actress was dressed rather like a dominatrix, even setting aside the way she confidently took command. And that was a Psiren doing things it knew would turn him on. ;)

The more I think about Lister's sexuality the harder it is to categorise. Let's just say "flexible and adaptable". :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That's a fascinating take on it and does make me understand the psychology behind submission a little more (or at least one possible reason for it).

(In the context of "Heroics", it's obviously not surprising that having fallen hard for Rimmer at a very young age, Lister would go into serious denial that anything was wrong once he resurrected him as a hologram. I have confused feelings about the whole thing and probably need to reread.)

Returning to our Lister, that's a powerful argument and makes more sense if you emphasise the "caring for" aspect rather than the "domination" one.

I should probably add that I have yet to stop reading a fic because it clashes with my headcanon. If it's worth reading it keeps my attention regardless. :)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I think this is an absolutely perfect way of looking at the dynamic that the two of them have. I bow down to your incredible characterizations. :D