weekend questions on BTL and BTE

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I don't care if this has been done before, I wasn't here, and we haven't had a discussion in a while, so what-ever. :-P


Better Than Life is a game that gives you what you most want, or at least elements of it if you're sharing with other users, correct? Rimmer had a psuedo-McGruder; even the Cat had a mermaid girlfriend and boinked Marilyn Monroe in there. SO - WHERE WAS KRISTINE KOCHANSKI?? Inquiring minds and all that. (I'll grant you it's been a while since I saw BTL, but I don't think she was in it, or mentioned ...)


Related but separately, I could ask a few questions about Back to Earth. At least a few. Related - if it was a pleasure squid they encountered, why did Kochanski not make an appearance sooner in the hallucination? (I'd ask why it didn't turn out well with her in there, but I can guess easily enough that Lister still knew it wasn't real and he didn't want the fantasy.) But earlier, none of them knew it was merely a vision - and Lister has been chomping at the bit to get back to Earth all these years - so why does he spend his time running around trying to find this Creator, instead of enjoying his surroundings, going outside, talking to other people just for conversation ... all that good stuff?


I feel like these are fair questions to group together, since one is at the beginning of the series and the other is at the end, and neither makes sense, given that one of Lister's primary motivators throughout is his lost lover (in this case, I mean Kochanski, not Rimmer ;-) ). In fact, he so aggressively misses her that you'd think in "fantasy" or "dream" scenarios, she'd be right up there every time - or at least in the early episode I mentioned!


(Oh, and it's been over 2 years since BTE aired, so I don't really need a spoiler cut, do I?)

Comments

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Well, as for the second one, I believe it was shortly after the novelty of being back on Earth that they found the DVD case, with the "knowing they're going to die in the last episode" bit that set them off to find their Creator. (I mean really, I'd be a bit paranoid if I was told I was going to suddenly die too)

As to the other, that's a gooood question.
Short easy excuse would be, I guess he didn't have enough time to enjoy to himself yet? He was spending most of his time hanging out with the Cat it seems.

[gemjam.livejournal.com]

I suppose the boring answer for BTL would be that they couldn't get the actress or it would have been a pain to schedule, so they chose to focus on other things. I agree that at that stage Lister would very must have wished Kochanski into existence. Maybe they just didn't want to use her too much because they wanted her to be this sort of pipe dream, and seeing it realised her would have spoilt that.

As for BTE, I think it's clear that Lister's older and more jaded and he very much believes Kochanski to be dead, so maybe his mind just couldn't come up with a way to have Kochanski. It's only after Kryten admits that she's not dead that Lister manages to conjure her up.

[beetle-breath.livejournal.com]

My take on Better than Life is this: It's a fantasy. They know it's a fantasy (unless we're talking book 'verse, which confuses me on how the show 'verse & book 'verse align but anyway) and he knows it's a fantasy and bringing Kochanski in would just suck because he wouldn't be with the real Kochanski, he'd be with a computer simulated Kochanski.

Rimmer and the Cat are far less concerned with such trivialities. They both just want to get laid.

[laurenthemself]

Nope, you're good to go without a spoiler cut, although I am now somewhat o_O at the fact that it's been that long.

Also, I agree with beetle_breath WRT BTL, and gemjam WRT BTE. I would have original thoughts about these things, but I'm sick.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Could be like them not using Kochanski in 'Camille' which they justified as being unlikely enough that even Lister might become suspicious.

And for fantasy figures, Lister tends not to sexualise Kochanski anyway, interestingly enough (in 'Psirens' for example, it's Pete Tranter's sister who's the sexual temptation, Kochanski is utterly divorced from the sexual act - their children together are test-tube babies, for example, she's literally the Madonna figure.)
He tells the AR girl he's attracted to 'heartbreakers' or 'moral garbage on legs', but is more attracted to her, the baddie, than the 'goody goody' heroine (presumably Kochanski would fit into the goody goody/heartbreaker category. LOL, who would fit into the morally suspect trope, though? ;)

I think Kochanski as a fantasy object throughout the series is interesting.
She begins as this representation of everything Lister wanted for his future and it's more sad because he never mustered the courage to go for it (mirrored with Rimmer, although his dreams are career centred) than because they were truly well matched.
And because he's the last human, she takes on a huge burden as an idol, not just a missed opportunity, but any hope for the human race, the focus for all his feelings about women, sex, etc. Even Lister knows this - his paranoia voices that 'how can you be so obsessed with a girl you hardly know?'

Then gradually, despite the rebooted continuity (a history between the two, alternate universes where they make it work), which you'd think would strengthen the possibility of a happier ending for them; she becomes slowly divorced from any aspects beyond furthering the human race, until she literally becomes the mother figure to Lister himself.

Then the minute she becomes a real human being rather than an object from afar, they drop the whole romance aspect almost wholly, and S8 they both seem completely uninvested in each other romantically.

'Back to Earth' just furthers that, imho - Katarina basically spells out that once again, his imperative is to further the human race.
Once again, Kochanski is valued as much because she's a mother figure (in this case, Lister's mooning over the article on Chloe Annett and her kids) who represent's Lister's growing older/more mature, than any specific qualities (right down to her costuming not being anything integral to the character, just another reference to 'Bladerunner' and it's female lead.)
Once again, the failure of their relationship is blamed on something minor (in this case, class differences, in the past it was her old boyfriend) which apparently only flounders these two, as opposed to every other version of Lister and Kochanski we hear about, who somehow overcome.

Once Kochanski's gone, he returns to obsessing over her (not helped by the fact he thinks she's dead again, of course, only a mech would think that's preferable to being dumped!) once again.
When she's gone he wants her, when she was present, for whatever reason, something held them back from being happy, and apparently that something was to do with Lister since he was miserable and drinking.
By the end, it seems like the elation squid did it's job, because Lister's apparently happiest not when he's with Kochanski but when, once again, she's the object he has to win.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I did take into account the DVD case thing, it's true. But he had a few minutes up to that point, and there was just no ... spark or interest, or things I would've expected. If I'd been away from other real (not nano) people for 20-some years - and away from the nano-people for 9 - I'd be going up to people to say hello and ask where I was, or what was going on around me, or just to interact. And I'm not even a people person.

It's just continuity fail on the part of the writers, IMO of course, but if you're going to have any fun in a fandom, you have to eye everything through the POV of the characters' motives. :-P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I suppose that's true, but they could've shown the back of someone who looks like the actress from a distance - like, Lister waving to her across the beach or at the golf course, or whatever. Or just a blurry profile shot sitting with them at the meal. It just seems such a specific choice to leave her out, on the part of the writers. It's not like Rob and Doug were great at continuity, but since KK was one of Lister's defining motives for keeping his sanity after the accident ... you can see my whining. *G*

As for the second thing, you may have a point. As in, he knew the whole time she was around that she was a fantasy, so that's why he eventually walked away from her.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Of course, if you compare BTL in the show with BTL in the book, you get two very different things. Book BTL is Lister living his true fantasy, and Show BTL is him living the stereotypical "I'm gonna try all this cool stuff because I can!" fantasy. Is it explained in the show that the game gives you what you really want despite what you think you might want, like it is in the book? I don't remember. Consciousness of fantasy seems to be present in the show as it is not in the book, so you may have a point.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

It HAS been that long. The bright side is, there's more time between then and now than between now and when the new series will air. *G*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Lister's apparently happiest not when he's with Kochanski but when, once again, she's the object he has to win.

Which seems to be a flipped case with how he is about Rimmer - he's happier, or at least less depressed, when Rimmer is about than when he's gone. Hmm.

This is a LOT more thorough than I'd come up with, and has several good points in it. I shall have to ponder over them, especially the symbolism of how Kochanski is treated in a nonsexual way. I didn't even think of that, to be honest. (Though I am always conscious that she's his mother, or at least the alt-universe one is.)

[beetle-breath.livejournal.com]

Consciousness is the whole point of the episode: Rimmer's fantasy turns to shit because he can't keep up with the illusion that nice things happen to him.

So yeah, I think Lister uses BtL to just have a laugh, not really carry out any fantasy (like he does in the book verse)

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I don't know.. he seemed to be kind of overwhelmed to me, and was happily people-watching quite a lot, which if you were truly without that much social stimulation, getting shoved into the middle of it all quite suddenly might indeed be cripplingly overwhelming to the point of making boisterous people shy.

That's not my view necessarily on just Lister though, that's more of a general observation.

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

oh, wow, wait, i just got movie-bte and show-btl mixed up because THE ACRONYM'S TOO SIMILAR and my brain was running on automatized thoughtful response mode.

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

oh, wait, no, i was talking right. Omg i need to not have so much multi-fic-tasking right now.

Sorry!

Weekend Questions on BTL and BTE

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Hello, new person here with a couple of comments. Firstly, the Making of BTE doc says there was supposed to be a scene where Lister wanders around seeing parents with kids etc. It was never fully filmed - I assume it was dropped due to time constraints.

That's a very good point about Lister not always sexualising Kochanski. He definitely does in the "Last Human" book, but since they actually have sex in it, you'd hope so!

There's an interesting scene where the pleasure Gelf impersonates her in nothing but underwear. Lister's tempted, but refuses, so her next choice is Rimmer! Clothed, though.

Re: Weekend Questions on BTL and BTE

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I would've liked to have seen Lister and the crew interacting with people - but especially Lister, knowing how very social he was.

I love that scene in the book, how it goes to Rimmer straightaway; That Gelf knows Lister's brain, probably much to his consternation.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Newbie to the active fandom here, but loved the show on original runs on PBS :D I just caught up with the series, thanks to Netflix; I didn't know there was a series after V8.

I concur with the statements that BtL VR game gave you the conscious desires, not what you openly thought about. Kochanski, to Lister, is the idolized one that "got away". I recognize it because my mother, turning 65 this year, still *ahem* fondly recalls her high school sweetheart, to the point she's told me I should have been a red-headed boy named Michael. On a trip to another state, she remarked that the HS boyfriend lived there with his wife and 2 kids (I didn't ask how she knew). I don't know if that kind of wistful 'what-might-have-been' has been eating at her for decades, or she's just remembering when, but it's disturbing...just like I've seen with Lister.

His recounts of her are always in a softer voice, like he's remembering his fondest memory, even if it's completely made up or out of proportion to what actually existed between them. We alter our memories to fit what we wanted to happen, sometimes. I don't think he wanted a VR Kochanski; she would ruin the illusion he already had of her.

As for S7 and getting a real Kochanski on board - he'd just suffered the loss of Rimmer, who had kept him sane for 6+ years and knew him at least as well as any of his mates. Kochanski's comparison of Lister to "her Dave" didn't help matters. The jokes she told and the games she played reinforced that this wasn't Lister's Kristine, so he was back to the idealized fantasy Kochanski to pine after.

Back to Earth-wise, the squid got them to Earth; what Lister wanted more than anything. The fact that they landed on earth splat in the middle of an electronics store with "Red Dwarf" plastered everywhere threw them and sent Lister's mind on a different tangent than remembering Kristine, even if he'd just been to read her tombstone a story (so she would have been relatively fresh in his mind). But, he was also mourning her, so he wouldn't necessarily be thinking about her and more pressing matters of the DVD comments keeping up with their "lives" on Earth took precedence.

Only as Lister breaks the tenth wall (I'd say BtE went far beyond the fourth wall) does Kochanski show up; a defense mechanism by the squid I'd guess. Kochanski tries to get him to stay, even knowing it's not real and succeeds for a bit; again, I'd assume some self-defense by the squid. Or did they kill the squid, then get sucked into the not-reality? Gah, I'll have to rewatch.

The thing that struck me most about BtE was the somberness of it. Maybe because they had no studio audience or laugh track, but the overall tone felt more serious. Some have said 'more mature', which I'll also agree with. I didn't get much sense of jokes or taunts between Lister and Rimmer, at least not in the humorous way we used to (except the extended bunk scene. That was gold). There was a seriousness to everyone's interactions; they weren't gallivanting around the universe, picking through space derelicts or playing golf on planetoids. Some may have to do with Kryten maintaining the lie about Kochanski's death. We saw how Kristine's death weighed on Lister. BtE did get my poor addled writer's mind thinking and I'll have a story to post in the coming weeks.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Agree with you that BTE was pretty sombre. I still like bits of it, but I hadn't realised before how used I am to Lister being cheery and optimistic. I love that about him, although if I was actually stuck in that situation with him it would no doubt start to grate eventually. Hopefully the new series will be more upbeat (it is possible to be mature and upbeat at the same time, IMO).

Look forward to reading your story. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

That's the thing about something that's normally kind of lighthearted taking a serious turn; love it or hate it, it does give you ideas (sort of what "Dead Man's Chest" did to me for POTC a few years ago). BTE gave the characters a new sort of depth in that it peeled back some absurdity and showed what Lister and Rimmer were, at least, thanks to the squid. We found out Lister's going through a massive midlife crisis/depression of loneliness - not surprising, but not something we really had to think much about with the original series (except for bits and pieces of S7). We found out Rimmer's still trying to be his old flip, uncaring self to Lister's face - but when Lister's not watching him, he looks quite clearly concerned about the man at various times (to be fair, this isn't TOO different from S1 when Lister fell ill and Rimmer was trying to get Cat to help pick him up; there just feels like a different flavor to it in BTE though, as though Rimmer realizes what's wrong with Lister is worse than just having a virus).

Agh, I'm getting carried away with my slashy self; but I really don't think I'm too far off what Naylor & Co. intended for me to see. The actors know the characters too well to play them accidentally (and I won't even get into the subtle hints of L/R throughout Doug's book The Last Human - not to mention his not-too-subtle comparisons there and through S7 of Rimmer's and Kochanski's similarities).

ANYWAY - good points, all. tl;dr and all that *G*

[kronette.livejournal.com]

We found out Rimmer's still trying to be his old flip, uncaring self to Lister's face - but when Lister's not watching him, he looks quite clearly concerned about the man at various times...there just feels like a different flavor to it in BTE though, as though Rimmer realizes what's wrong with Lister is worse than just having a virus

You, quite literally, just picked my brain and came up with the story idea I'm working on :D Rimmer's still trying to act like everything's the same as it's been for years, but Lister isn't playing the same part. I'm in the final edits of the story; just trying to determine how much to put in the second-to-last scene. I swear, if I could ever write a short story, I'd be so, so happy but noooo, I bang out 30 pagers on a regular basis. Gah! Off to edit.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

At times, Lister's cheerfulness did seem unbelievable, but this was a comedy series, not a drama. I think that's where BtE went a little sideways. The writers were trying to be a bit of both with such an absurd storyline, but have Lister react to it without his natural humor. It didn't straddle the line well, like Buffy did, for instance.

If the new series is more like season 6 (isn't that what's been reported?), then I'll be happy. After rewatching the entire series, I remembered through some of S7, but I didn't recall the ending at all, and certainly not the ending to S8. I know I was disappointed that Chris left in S7, and that may have taxed my younger self's attachment to the show.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

...*Rimmer was the thing keeping him sane*...*cough*

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

Wow, brilliant. It's a wonderful point about Kochanksi being something to strive for to keep him sane, much like annoying Rimmer. What happens when he stops chasing Kockanski because he has her or Rimmer stops being annoyed and leaves?...Lister losing it. :P

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I completely agree; BTE was more somber, less laughs. Which just didn't set well with me. I hope with the new series, with the studio audiences back, they go back to the laughs, and be poingnat and angsty at in teh background, like Terrorform and all its possibilites.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I did only say "one of" about the thought of her. ;-)