Alternate Universes

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Whilst commenting on Kronette's story "Back To Life" ( http://kronette.livejournal.com/270886.html#cutid1), we started discussing parallel dimensions and wondering why the original Ace, coming as he obviously did from a dimension where the human race has survived, didn't offer to take the Red Dwarf crew with him on his interdimensional travels.

My comment was as follows:

Thinking about it, your story raises an interesting question - why didn't the original Ace at least offer to take Lister with him?  (Apart from the obvious answer that the show's not about the adventures of Ace and Skipper - although I'd watch that!)

I know Wildfire's cramped, but they could have taken Rimmer as a light bee and temporarily dismantled Kryten (as I believe they did in one of Veronica's stories).  Surely they'd eventually have found a dimension where the human race isn't extinct?

Is this another of Rob and Doug's plot holes, or am I missing something?

Kronette responded:

Considering all the times we've been shown Ace defending a damsel in distress, it seems he's found a lot of universes where the human race lives on. I wonder what the ratio is of dead universes to human-filled ones? And what about one where the feline race is dominant? Too many possibilities!

I try to remember that a lot of obvious plots need to be overlooked as this is a comedy show. Logically, the first Ace who came across a Lister, Rimmer and Cat who were the last surviving humanoids would have gallantly taken them to a universe where other humans resided. However, that would have negated the show and we'd have no more RD.

If Ace had taken our crew to another dimension filled with humans...then what? Would Lister reup with JMC? You know Rimmer would, in order to get his officer's status. Depending on how long the RD crew were together, I can't see them staying together once they found an Earth or a universe with people. And again, no show.

I think the bigger question is -- why didn't our Rimmer offer to take Lister with him? They'd heard Ace's adventures, and Rimmer had access to the Wildfire's database...so Rimmer knew that universes existed with humans. It does seem odd that the question never came up, but maybe Grant & Naylor decided it would be too dramatic-traumatic to deal with a Lister who could be granted a whole new universe filled with people. Maybe at the next DJ con, someone could ask any of the bigwigs? :)

Slash fics alert! :p  I'm aware of Grant Naylor's relaxed attitude to continuity, and actually rather admire it.  It gives fans like us endless fodder for discussion.

P.S. Apologies for the length of this post, but I'm not sure how to insert an LJ cut.

Comments

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Ah, but is it possible Rimmer was pissed off at Lister for essentially forcing him to leave? Or at least forcing him into the position where he had to replace Ace for the Cat and Kryten? If he really didn't want to go (at least at first), it's possible he did it out of spite ... or maybe Rimmer just wanted to be alone again, in a way he hadn't been for years.

[beetle-breath.livejournal.com]

before BtE, I always had it in my own little headcanon that Rimmer!Ace saves the day @ the end of S8 and they somehow all cram into the Wildfire and gtfo of Dodge

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Those are all plausible, but now I come to think of it, maybe he also thought they'd appreciate him more in his absence and intended to eventually come swanning back full of tales of his heroism.

Actually, it's all falling into place now. He thinks if he proves himself as Ace, Lister will finally fall for him. :D

There could be countless reasons, some slashy, some not, but it's fun to speculate. :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Well, the first part of that could still be true; we won't know until Series X airs. I read a story called "Rimmer's Return" (by Miss Flibble, I think), which filled in the gaps pretty convincingly, explaining how Rimmer could be back with the crew without apparently having been changed by his time as Ace.

There'll be an explosion of fics when we finally get the canon explanation. :)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Oooh, now, this I like. While it didn't show on screen (that goodbye hug was anything but unpleasant for Lister or Rimmer), do you think Rimmer could have pulled off hiding his real feelings? Rimmer hasn't been shown to be able to hide his feelings very well, especially when pushed (which is exactly how Lister tricked him into wanting to prove he could be Ace). Rimmer's behavior is fairly predictable.

I do feel there may have been some hurt feelings on Rimmer's part that Lister was pushing him away so vehemently. While Rimmer knows that Lister's always ragged on him and teased him, sometimes cruelly, he'd never actively pushed him away like that before. We know Rimmer is a vengeful man to a degree, and highly petty.

I can also see Rimmer wanting some time to himself, especially since they lost Red Dwarf and were confined to the tiny Starbug by comparison. Though I think the Wildfire was even smaller than Starbug, at least he'd have time to listen to his music and appreciate his appreciations without ridicule.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I. Love. This. I don't know if it would be a cheap ending, or brilliant, if our original Rimmer!Ace returned in Series X to give the smackdown to the Rimmer from S8 (to be a hologram or not to be a hologram - that is the question to which we all want an answer). I don't know if we're supposed to keep track of which Rimmer is from what multiverse, or just go with them all as the same one.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Since there is no more Space Corps, maybe Rimmer sees becoming Ace as the only way to "prove" to his long-dead brothers and parents that he is officer material. He'll be manly and brave and swaggering, just like his brothers, and have tales to bedazzle them with...you know, if they weren't dead. I do think the appeal of Ace as a hero is what finally convinced Arnold to go. He's still scared and a coward, but he does have some successes under his belt. By the time he leaves to be Ace, he's not the same snivelly man he was when Ace first appeared. Rimmer's changed for the better. Becoming Ace is a next step, though probably should have been a few steps down the line. Ace's appearance and subsequent death fast-forwarded Rimmer's becoming-Ace timeline.

But, maybe by the time our Rimmer would have been truly ready to take over as Ace, he wouldn't have needed to prove anything to anyone and may have declined. My @#!)** evil brain just decided to spit out a plot bunny. Essentially, Rimmer does become Ace-like in heroics and bravery, but does it while staying with the original gang. Instead the self-centered (but lovable) git we saw in BtE, we'd have a Rimmer much closer to Ace in actions and deeds, though probably not in voice or clothes (thank goodness - those suits are horrible! :D). Rimmer with natural evolution.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Actually, that was one of the alternate endings to S8 that wasn't filmed, wasn't it?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, of course, it's my and metalkatt's contention that S8 Rimmer and S1-7 Rimmer - and BTE - are all one and the same. *G*

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

You're right that there's a difference between Season 4 and Season 7 Rimmer. In between, he's been held captive by his own subconscious ("Terrorform"), fallen in love ("Holoship"), been tortured by his own clones for 600 years ("Rimmerworld") and tried to heroically save everyone after meeting his evil future self ("Out Of Time").

When you look at it like that, the fact that he takes on the Ace mantle seems more plausible, if still possibly premature.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't know whether Rimmer would have been able to hide his real feelings towards Lister (assuming they were what we'd like to think). Unless they suddenly dawned on him as Lister was pressuring him to go and he panicked. :)

Wanting his own personal space is also a very understandable reason.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

A lot of people refer to Season 8 Rimmer as though he's our Rimmer, but he isn't really. Not that it's his fault, he just hasn't had the character changing experiences. :(

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Of course, I'd forgotten the ingenious explanation you came up with in "Someone To Watch Over Me" (great fic, BTW). Maybe he is our Rimmer after all!

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

(Sorry for the confusing order of my comments - I can't reply to one of Kronette's for some reason.) :(

Yes, one plan was to have Rimmer-as-Ace heroically save the day, but sadly it wasn't filmed.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I can't see them as all the same Rimmer. For S8, it's a rebuilt Rimmer who ends up the hologram we see in BtE. The first 7 seasons are all the same Rimmer for me.

I'm currently listening to Chris narrate Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers. The man is brilliant.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Awww, it might have happened? Awww :(

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Actually, writer / director Doug Naylor hinted on his audio commentary for BTE that it was "our" Rimmer that we see. However, at the DJ convention this year he told fans that he hadn't decided one way or the other. We shall see.

Yes, Chris just has a wonderful voice, doesn't he? :)

[vejgeta9.livejournal.com]

I, myself would like to hear the slashy one's. XD

[vejgeta9.livejournal.com]

Here's another thought. What if the whole reason for Lister pushing Rimmer to becoming Ace was that Lister didn't want to accept the fact that he was devoping feelings for Rimmer, that he saw him as being something more than just a smeghead?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Well, as you said, it could be that Lister was developing feelings for Rimmer and couldn't face them, or vice versa, or both.

In addition, the chance to actually become Ace would be very tempting to Rimmer if he was in love with Lister, as he's seen the effect that version of himself has on him. I mean, have you seen the way Lister looks at Ace in "Dimension Jump"? Slash city. :)