pay for fanfic?
May. 22nd, 2013 02:58 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
veronica-rich.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
reddwarfslashI'm going to post this across some communities I'm in that deal with fanfic, if the mods don't mind (please tell me if you do). One of my favorite current authors, John Scalzi, addresses a new program Amazon has apparently set up in which people can "publish" their fanfic and have the chance to be paid for it.
I'm just curious in the comments about your thoughts on this business model, as well as the idea of publishing fanfic as-is (as opposed to pulling a James and changing the names and situations a la "Fifty Shades" for profit. I know fans who draw or paint or make music, or almost any other product other than writing, can find a way to make a profit off that kind of hobby that we fanfic writers have not been able to similarly enjoy, for a long time now. But to be honest, it's never occurred to me to want to sell my fanfic. The whole point of it is to retain the freedom to write whatever the hell I want, whenever I want, on whatever topic I please. I've sold plenty of my writing for-profit and I have to say, it's nice to retain an outlet where there are people who will read my stuff without having the right to dictate what I do with it ... which you get when money enters the picture. (This is not to say I see anything wrong with selling fiction or nonfiction for a living - I wouldn't do it if I thought it was bad. But there's writing I'm willing to tinker with and change for a dollar, and writing I won't.)
Anyway, I'll let John do the talking now. If you don't want to go to the link, I'll put it below, too (though you may wish to follow the link so you can find the link to the actual Amazon business plan link):
The Twitters are abuzz today about Amazon’s new “Kindle Worlds” program, in which people are allowed to write and then sell through Amazon their fan fiction for certain properties owned by Alloy Entertainment, including Vampire Diaries and Pretty Little Liars, with more licenses expected soon. I’ve had a quick look at the program on Amazon’s site, and I have a couple of immediate thoughts on it. Be aware that these thoughts are very preliminary, i.e., I reserve the right to have possibly contradictory thoughts about the program later, when I think (and read) about it more. Also note that these are my personal thoughts and do not reflect the positions or policies of SFWA, of which I am (still but not for much longer) president.
1. The main knock on fan fiction from the rights-holders point of view — i.e., people are using their characters and situations in ways that probably violate copyright — is apparently not at all a problem here, since Alloy Entertainment is on board for allowing people to write what they want (within specific guidelines — more on that in a bit). Since that’s the case, there’s probably a technical argument here about whether this is precisely “fan fiction” or if it’s actually media tie-in writing done with intentionally low bars to participation (the true answer, I suspect, is that it’s both). Either way, if Alloy Entertainment’s on board, everything’s on the level, so why not.
2. So, on one hand it offers people who write fan fiction a chance to get paid for their writing in a way that doesn’t make the rightsholders angry, which is nice for the fan ficcers. On the other hand, as a writer, there are a number of things about the deal Amazon/Alloy are offering that raise red flags for me. Number one among these is this bit:
“We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you.”
i.e., that really cool creative idea you put in your story, or that awesome new character you made? If Alloy Entertainment likes it, they can take it and use it for their own purposes without paying you — which is to say they make money off your idea, lots of money, even, and all you get is the knowledge they liked your idea.
Essentially, this means that all the work in the Kindle Worlds arena is a work for hire that Alloy (and whomever else signs on) can mine with impunity. This is a very good deal for Alloy, et al — they’re getting story ideas! Free! — and less of a good deal for the actual writers themselves. I mean, the official media tie-in writers and script writers are doing work for hire, too, but they get advances and\or at least WGA minimum scale for their work.
Another red flag:
“Amazon Publishing will acquire all rights to your new stories, including global publication rights, for the term of copyright.”
Which is to say, once Amazon has it, they have the right to do anything they want with it, including possibly using it in anthologies or selling it other languages, etc, without paying the author anything else for it, ever. Again, an excellent deal for Amazon; a less than excellent deal for the actual writer.
Note that on its page Amazon makes a show of saying that the writer owns the copyright on the original things that are copyrightable, but inasmuch as Amazon also acquires all rights for the length of the copyright and Alloy is given the right to exploit the new elements without further compensation, this show about you keeping your copyright appears to be just that: show.
The argument here could be, well, you know, people who were writing fan fiction weren’t getting paid or had rights to these characters and worlds anyway, so only getting paid for their work once is still better than what they would have gotten before. And that’s not an entirely bad argument on one level. But on another level, there’s a difference between writing fan fiction because you love the world and the characters on a personal level, and Amazon and Alloy actively exploiting that love for their corporate gain and throwing you a few coins for your trouble. So this should be an interesting argument for people to have in the real world.
3. If this sort of thing takes off, I’m interested to see what effect it will have on the media tie-in market, and on the professional writers who work in it. Obviously it has the potential to greatly shift how things are done. If you are a corporate rights holder, for example, would you bother with seeking out pro writers any more, and paying them advances and royalties and all of that business? Or would you just open up the gates to paid fan fiction, which you don’t have to pay anything for and yet still have total control over the commercial exploitation thereof? Again, this is interesting stuff to consider, and if I were a pro writer who primarily worked in media tie-in markets, I would have some real concerns.
4. This won’t spell the end of unauthorized fan fic, and I’m very sure of that. For one thing, the Kindle Worlds program says it won’t accept “pornography” which means all that slash out there will still be on the outside of the program (Edit: to note not all slash is porn, although I wonder if Amazon won’t simply default it as such); likewise crossover fan fic, so those “Vampire Diaries meet Dr Who” stories will be left out in the cold. And besides that, there will be people who a) have no interest in making money and/or b) don’t write well enough to be accepted into the Kindle Worlds program (there does seem that there will be some attempt at quality control, or at least, someone has to go through the stuff to make sure there’s nothing that’s contractually forbidden). So if this was an attempt to squash fan fic through other means, it’s doomed to failure. But I don’t suspect that’s the point.
5. Speaking as a writer, I wouldn’t do something like this; I don’t generally like writing in other people’s worlds in any event (and when I do, I go public domain — see Fuzzy Nation) and I don’t like the terms that are on offer here. And of course I have my own things to write. Likewise, I would caution anyone looking at this to be aware that overall this is not anywhere close to what I would call a good deal. Finally, on a philosophical level, I suspect this is yet another attempt in a series of long-term attempts to fundamentally change the landscape for purchasing and controlling the work of writers in such a manner that ultimately limits how writers are compensated for their work, which ultimately is not to the benefit of the writer. This will have far-reaching consequences that none of us really understand yet.
The thing that can be said for it is that it’s a better deal than you would otherwise get for writing fan fiction, i.e., no deal at all and possibly having to deal with a cranky rightsholder angry that you kids are playing in their yard. Is that enough for you? That’s on you to decide.
I'm just curious in the comments about your thoughts on this business model, as well as the idea of publishing fanfic as-is (as opposed to pulling a James and changing the names and situations a la "Fifty Shades" for profit. I know fans who draw or paint or make music, or almost any other product other than writing, can find a way to make a profit off that kind of hobby that we fanfic writers have not been able to similarly enjoy, for a long time now. But to be honest, it's never occurred to me to want to sell my fanfic. The whole point of it is to retain the freedom to write whatever the hell I want, whenever I want, on whatever topic I please. I've sold plenty of my writing for-profit and I have to say, it's nice to retain an outlet where there are people who will read my stuff without having the right to dictate what I do with it ... which you get when money enters the picture. (This is not to say I see anything wrong with selling fiction or nonfiction for a living - I wouldn't do it if I thought it was bad. But there's writing I'm willing to tinker with and change for a dollar, and writing I won't.)
Anyway, I'll let John do the talking now. If you don't want to go to the link, I'll put it below, too (though you may wish to follow the link so you can find the link to the actual Amazon business plan link):
The Twitters are abuzz today about Amazon’s new “Kindle Worlds” program, in which people are allowed to write and then sell through Amazon their fan fiction for certain properties owned by Alloy Entertainment, including Vampire Diaries and Pretty Little Liars, with more licenses expected soon. I’ve had a quick look at the program on Amazon’s site, and I have a couple of immediate thoughts on it. Be aware that these thoughts are very preliminary, i.e., I reserve the right to have possibly contradictory thoughts about the program later, when I think (and read) about it more. Also note that these are my personal thoughts and do not reflect the positions or policies of SFWA, of which I am (still but not for much longer) president.
1. The main knock on fan fiction from the rights-holders point of view — i.e., people are using their characters and situations in ways that probably violate copyright — is apparently not at all a problem here, since Alloy Entertainment is on board for allowing people to write what they want (within specific guidelines — more on that in a bit). Since that’s the case, there’s probably a technical argument here about whether this is precisely “fan fiction” or if it’s actually media tie-in writing done with intentionally low bars to participation (the true answer, I suspect, is that it’s both). Either way, if Alloy Entertainment’s on board, everything’s on the level, so why not.
2. So, on one hand it offers people who write fan fiction a chance to get paid for their writing in a way that doesn’t make the rightsholders angry, which is nice for the fan ficcers. On the other hand, as a writer, there are a number of things about the deal Amazon/Alloy are offering that raise red flags for me. Number one among these is this bit:
“We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you.”
i.e., that really cool creative idea you put in your story, or that awesome new character you made? If Alloy Entertainment likes it, they can take it and use it for their own purposes without paying you — which is to say they make money off your idea, lots of money, even, and all you get is the knowledge they liked your idea.
Essentially, this means that all the work in the Kindle Worlds arena is a work for hire that Alloy (and whomever else signs on) can mine with impunity. This is a very good deal for Alloy, et al — they’re getting story ideas! Free! — and less of a good deal for the actual writers themselves. I mean, the official media tie-in writers and script writers are doing work for hire, too, but they get advances and\or at least WGA minimum scale for their work.
Another red flag:
“Amazon Publishing will acquire all rights to your new stories, including global publication rights, for the term of copyright.”
Which is to say, once Amazon has it, they have the right to do anything they want with it, including possibly using it in anthologies or selling it other languages, etc, without paying the author anything else for it, ever. Again, an excellent deal for Amazon; a less than excellent deal for the actual writer.
Note that on its page Amazon makes a show of saying that the writer owns the copyright on the original things that are copyrightable, but inasmuch as Amazon also acquires all rights for the length of the copyright and Alloy is given the right to exploit the new elements without further compensation, this show about you keeping your copyright appears to be just that: show.
The argument here could be, well, you know, people who were writing fan fiction weren’t getting paid or had rights to these characters and worlds anyway, so only getting paid for their work once is still better than what they would have gotten before. And that’s not an entirely bad argument on one level. But on another level, there’s a difference between writing fan fiction because you love the world and the characters on a personal level, and Amazon and Alloy actively exploiting that love for their corporate gain and throwing you a few coins for your trouble. So this should be an interesting argument for people to have in the real world.
3. If this sort of thing takes off, I’m interested to see what effect it will have on the media tie-in market, and on the professional writers who work in it. Obviously it has the potential to greatly shift how things are done. If you are a corporate rights holder, for example, would you bother with seeking out pro writers any more, and paying them advances and royalties and all of that business? Or would you just open up the gates to paid fan fiction, which you don’t have to pay anything for and yet still have total control over the commercial exploitation thereof? Again, this is interesting stuff to consider, and if I were a pro writer who primarily worked in media tie-in markets, I would have some real concerns.
4. This won’t spell the end of unauthorized fan fic, and I’m very sure of that. For one thing, the Kindle Worlds program says it won’t accept “pornography” which means all that slash out there will still be on the outside of the program (Edit: to note not all slash is porn, although I wonder if Amazon won’t simply default it as such); likewise crossover fan fic, so those “Vampire Diaries meet Dr Who” stories will be left out in the cold. And besides that, there will be people who a) have no interest in making money and/or b) don’t write well enough to be accepted into the Kindle Worlds program (there does seem that there will be some attempt at quality control, or at least, someone has to go through the stuff to make sure there’s nothing that’s contractually forbidden). So if this was an attempt to squash fan fic through other means, it’s doomed to failure. But I don’t suspect that’s the point.
5. Speaking as a writer, I wouldn’t do something like this; I don’t generally like writing in other people’s worlds in any event (and when I do, I go public domain — see Fuzzy Nation) and I don’t like the terms that are on offer here. And of course I have my own things to write. Likewise, I would caution anyone looking at this to be aware that overall this is not anywhere close to what I would call a good deal. Finally, on a philosophical level, I suspect this is yet another attempt in a series of long-term attempts to fundamentally change the landscape for purchasing and controlling the work of writers in such a manner that ultimately limits how writers are compensated for their work, which ultimately is not to the benefit of the writer. This will have far-reaching consequences that none of us really understand yet.
The thing that can be said for it is that it’s a better deal than you would otherwise get for writing fan fiction, i.e., no deal at all and possibly having to deal with a cranky rightsholder angry that you kids are playing in their yard. Is that enough for you? That’s on you to decide.
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no subject
Date: 2013-05-22 08:34 pm (UTC)I have to say this deal kind of stinks IMO. Amazon get to tap into a well of creativity for much less than they'd pay a professional TV tie-in writer, and keep the profits after a one-off payment.
This kind of reminds me of the current British government's policy of firing qualified paid workers and replacing them with volunteers to save money. :/
Having said that, I would understand a fanficcer going for it, if they want to get their work out there. I suppose the exposure could lead to better things.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-22 11:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 12:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 12:55 am (UTC)Personally, it would also go against everything that makes writing fanfic fun for me, and cut into the element of community and engagement with other fans that feels like such an important part of fandom (or at least the parts of fandom I spend time in).
no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 02:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 07:11 am (UTC)+1000.
Amazon gets a heap of rights and you get very little leverage. If you happen to include an OC in a fic you submit, you wouldn't be able to use that OC later, even in original work, because they'd have the rights. They could decide not to include your fic in their sales program at all, but if you decided to post it in your LJ afterward, they could come after you.
I don't see money as inherently bad for fandom -- commissioned fic isn't fundamentally different from commissioned fanart, and I've never felt less engaged with other fans in art-focused communities just because it's more acceptable there to ask for money. But this specific deal Amazon's offering is exploitative, plain and simple.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 11:56 am (UTC)That said, fan fiction should be free, shared, written for pleasure, and uncensored. Legalities make them specify limitations (no crossovers, no porn, etc) that just make for bad fic. This seems to me to be sort of like what happened to fanfiction.net, only now people are expected to pay to read the stunted fic. No thank you!
no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 12:34 pm (UTC)It's not the money itself that I think would make me feel less engaged, it's this particular way of doing it. When someone commissions a fic or a piece of art now, the interaction is fan to fan. Through this new model, fan 1 would interact with Amazon to sell their fic, and then fan 2 would interact with Amazon to buy it, but fan 1 and fan 2 would miss that connection with each other.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-23 01:46 pm (UTC)Yeah, I'm paranoid, most likely that'll never happen. But I like things the way they are and my gut instinct is that I don't want the networks poking their noses in.
Also, I think it could potentially end up creating a kind of two tier system for fanfic with certain authors doing it all for the money rather than love of the show, the reviews they get etc. The fact that writers don't get paid for their work has always been one of those fundamental things about fanfic, something that we have always accepted as part and parcel of fic writing, we write for the fandom community, not for financial reward.
My main concern is that this will harm fandom by encouraging writers to use this system and get paid for their work, on the condition that they conform to certain conditions (no slash, no porn, maybe even no shipping at all) which will in turn be detrimental to the fandom as a whole.
I'm desperately hoping this idea never gets off the ground.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 04:12 am (UTC)THIS. This is exactly what I was thinking when I first read it, too. I'm less worried about how people will get screwed by Amazon buying their stories, and more about how it could damage underground fanfic. Paramount, notably, made real efforts in the 1990s to have fan websites taken down because they used photos and other materials gleaned online - and I'm not talking about fanfic or video clips (which were hard to capture and post on the slow interwebs back then), I'm just talking about plain old sites where people were actually showing their love for the show AND HELPING PARAMOUNT BY GOING ON ABOUT HOW GOOD IT WAS. And the studio still wanted to go to war over copyrights.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 05:51 am (UTC)And I don't think fanfic should ever, ever be censored. What's the point of it, if not to boldly go where no show has gone before?
no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 07:10 am (UTC)And the fact that the program would only publish certain kinds of stories isn't censorship. Amazon doesn't have any obligation to publish everything, and they're not regulating All Fanfic Ever, or stopping you from posting those stories elsewhere. It's not morally different from a zine saying "this publication is focused on Pat/Alex, so we're not printing Alex/Sam stories", or a comm saying "this is for Fandom X, not a place to post Fandom Y."
no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 07:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 07:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 07:35 am (UTC)Other than that, I don't see them as much different from original novels: if they're good, they're worth reading, and being able to talk to the author isn't a necessity.
That kind of pursuit would suck, but best not to criticize Amazon when they haven't shown any intention of doing it, yeah? This isn't the first time companies have tried to monetize fic (FanLib was an attempt at a for-profit ff.net, and there was an officially sanctioned One Direction fic contest recently), and none of them have led to shutdowns of fic outside their purview.
Meanwhile, creators who don't like fic can demand that it be shut down already, no complicated setup needed. Some sites will bow to their wishes; others won't. I know ff.net doesn't have a category for The Vampire Chronicles because Anne Rice told them not to. The AO3, on the other hand, won't prohibit anything, and the OTW's legal team is there in part to fight the issue in court if necessary.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-24 08:07 am (UTC)I kinda feel like if an author says we shouldn't write fic, then we shouldn't. I don't really care so much about if some big company's bought the rights and they tell us to stop, but when the author does. Hmm. I dunno, it's all grey and mushy and weird. I think it's important that people CAN write that stuff, but I feel a bit too icky going near it myself. But then that's a matter of personal squick, much like I don't want to read RPS or twincest..... which btw, is what put me off tie-in novels in the first place. Read some Star Wars book when I was a kid... obviously it was published after episode IV, because there were some very confusing snoggy scenes between Luke and Leia which left twelve year old me going DDDDDDDDDD:
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