Vaguely Halloween Related

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Maybe this is one of those things which was obvious to everyone else, but it only clicked for me today when I saw a still of The Wicked Witch Of The West from "The Wizard Of Oz" in an article about Halloween.  It's quite a while since I've seen the film, but I just remembered that she uses the same name for Dorothy - "My pretty" - as Low Rimmer does for Lister in "Demons & Angels".

Admittedly Rob and Doug may have come up with that independently, but given how ingrained that film is in the collective (English-speaking, at least) consciousness, it seems more likely to me that they subconsciously remembered it as convenient shorthand for "This character is evil.  Just to emphasise that, have a broad hint that they have a homosexual interest in our protagonist and aren't particularly bothered whether or not it's returned.  You got that, right?  Evil?"

From what I remember of the film, the Wicked Witch is one of the characters who has a counterpart in Dorothy's regular life in Kansas - sinister spinster Miss Gulch, who can be read as a (stereotyped) lesbian.  I notice these things more than the average viewer, being gay myself, but the parallels with Low Rimmer and the idea of someone's repressed sexuality emerging when they undergo a magical transformation just seems too obvious to be entirely coincidental.  It may be, of course.

So that's my "Well, duh!" moment regarding pop culture references in RD.  Feel free to add your own.

Comments

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

When I was a teenager I wrote part of a 'Dwarfers in Oz' story with Lister as Dorothy landing Starbug on the Wicked Witch, leading to the line 'I'll get you, my pretty. And your little Cat too!'. Cue Cat turning angrily to Lister saying 'Well, thanks a lot bud!' and Lister standing there in a pair of red shoes and a WTF expression like 'this could only happen to me'.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Lol, that sounds hilarious. The Dwarfers actually fit that film really well. Lister wants to go home (like Dorothy), Kryten wants to break his programming, Rimmer wants a body and Cat wants - well, sex. :)

There's actually an amusing WIP on AO3 with that concept too, written by http://merzky-nadsat.livejournal.com/

[derien.livejournal.com]

What should I search for on AO3 to find this? I searched for 'merzky' and got nothing, searched for 'nadsat' and it came up not as an author but as some kind of warnings reference. I'm baffled. What does it mean?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Merzky-nadsat is her LJ name. On AO3 she's Bloomoonbaby. :)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I never thought to interpret the character of Ms. Gulch/the Wicked Witch of the West as a negative stereotype of a lesbian. I can see where one could come away with that though.

I always saw the dynamic between her and Dorothy of being more age versus youth or beauty versus ugly. I always interpreted Ms. Gulch's animosity towards Doeothy as stemming from jealousy of her youth and prettiness. Hence the snide, "my pretty" line.

Clearly Low Rimmer's feelings are not as innocent. ;-) But I think that the youth versus age and prettiness versus ugly argument could also be applied as well, when thought of through the filter of Rimmer's own neuroses. Clearly Rimmer is jealous of Lister's charm and youthful exhuberance. Even though they're not far apart in age, and equally good-looking, I can totally see Rimmer seeing himself as the ugly, old one.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I would love to read this! :)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Interesting point - see I don't think Rimmer considers himself at all attractive but I also don't think that if he could choose his appearance that he'd choose to look like Lister either. I'm not sure Lister is traditionally 'masculine' enough to fit Rimmer's likely stereotype of what a man should look like and what he would aspire too. Lister is too short, too pretty, too chubby. He may be insanely attracted to Lister, and the aforementioned qualities may be a part of that, but I'm not sure that he's jealous in that sense. However, Low Rimmer may well have a jealous desire to possess Lister as a desirable object because he is so much 'prettier' than anyone else he has access to, if that makes sense.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Well, as I said, it's a while since I've seen the film; I need to remedy that. You may well be right - it just really struck me when I realised she and Low Rimmer used the same phrase. :)

Regarding Rimmer, you could well be right. He has a low opinion of himself and points out that people like Lister despite his slobbiness. Plus the nickname "Miladdo" can be seen as referring to Lister's youthfulness.

Now I'm remembering a Kahvi / Roadstergal fic where Rimmer starts comparing his looks unfavourably to Ace and obsessing about the size of his nose. Poor Arn.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I'm just going to link here to a favourite fic of mine where Rimmer watches Lister's dreams and finds out he's having erotic dreams about his encounter with Low Rimmer, because it contains some relevant lines. And also because it's hot. ;)

http://reddwarfslash.livejournal.com/331667.html

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

My own personal interpretation of Rimmer is that everything that he considers to be his own opinions are coloured by years of trying to live-up to his family's expectations of him. I think he's spent so many years mirroring their opinions back on them, that he thinks they're his own, when they're really not. I see Rimmer being jealous of Lister's looks and attitudes subconsciously, because somewhere deep down, he's truly envious of who Lister is.

I think of Rimmer as being sort of the black sheep of his family, only he never had the self-confidence or wherewithal to actually rebel against them. Instead he spent years repressing and denying who he really wanted to be, and it's made him into the simpering, smeggy mess that we all know and love. I think he sees in Lister, someone that he subconsciously wishes he could be like, even though other parts of his brain are completely in denial of it.

Just how I choose to interpret their dynamic though. There are so may different ways it can be approached. It's one of the things I love about the show and the fanfiction. :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I think it's sort of in between, as in Rimmer envies Lister's confidence, popularity and sexual experience but not necessarily his physical appearance. The drunk scene in "Memory" fuels that idea.

I love different interpretations though - they lead to a rich variety of fic. :D

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I love that drunk scene in Thanks for the Memory SO much. Drunk Rimmer is one of my favorites. I really need to write a fic that features drunk Rimmer at some point. I love thinking about what he could accidentally let slip, once his tongue's been loosened by a bit of booze.

See, I see Rimmer's complaints about Lister's looks, ie: pregnant baboon, Alfred Hitchcock, looking like a frog in a biology class, etc... as a classic case of "protesting too much". He's in such denial and trying to convince himself SO hard. :D

But yes, you're exactly right, the different interpretations lead to such a wealth when it comes to the fic. I love the variety! Rimmer's been a top, a bottom, the dominant, the submissive, and just about everything in-between. I find it so fascinating everyone's different takes on them. It's never boring to read what others have written. :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Drunk Rimmer is very appealing, so much that I wrote a ficlet where it stirs subconscious feelings in Lister, who sadly dismisses them as the product of alcohol. ;)

I've yet to encounter a slasher who doesn't find the mussed curls, crumpled uniform and open shirt showing his washboard stomach attractive. :)

Oh, I completely agree that Rimmer protests too much about Lister's appearance. I just think he's in denial about being attracted to him rather than wanting to look like him. But each to their own. :)