Last Humans: C-Tower

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Red Dwarf Fanfic: Last Humans
Chapter 8: C-Tower
Summary: Wherein Rimmer is wasted, Lister is molested and Bob the scutter is behind it all.
Warnings: Language, strong sexual content, slash, Lister/Rimmer, non-con
Beta: Roadstergal (with many thanks)
Chapter Rating: MA(18+)

Rimmer blinked. "Bob?" he squeaked.

Comments

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I think the writing was particularly good in this chapter, which might be why the molestation scene disturbed me as much as it did. I'm still not sure what I think about that. Rimmer has clearly been through a lot (and is pretty screwed up, on so many levels), but it seems unfair that Lister should pay for that. I hope he regrets what he's done when he comes to. I'm afraid he won't though, and that makes me uneasy about reading the next part. You've taken them to a very dark place.

As for Lister getting some enjoyment out of it... hm. I can buy Kochanski getting off on feeling "dirty" by having sex with Rimmer; that whole revulsion/attraction thing, because we see how repulsed she is by Rimmer in canon, and this is a different Rimmer; one she likes. So I can get behind that. But Lister doesn't strike me as the type to get off on that sort of thing, particularly not when he's actually being molested.

I'm also not sure I buy him being so completely oblivious to being attracted to Rimmer. It doesn't jarr much in the contect of the story, but to me, that's not very Listery behavior. I mean, you've established that he's felt attracted to Rimmer in the past, so it strikes me as odd that he would be so totally off about it.

You know, not that I know the man, but your Lister reminds me more of how I imagine Craig Charles to be (from interviews, etc.) than Lister. Which is neither here nor there, but there it is.

Not sure if this is any helpful, sorry. I was a little disturbed by this...

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Not to belabor the point, but in the story Lister _did_ do something pretty nasty to Rimmer. He chose to violate his mind.

The choice he made is coming back to bite him in the ass, and although what happens to him is pretty extreme, he _did_ choose to initiate the pain and confusion Rimmer is dealing with now.

As for the characterization, I think there is a bit of cruely to Lister, and willful ignorance about the pain he brings others (particularly Rimmer.) Pouring the sexual magnetism virus on Rimmer in a location where it could easily get Rimmer gang-raped (don't know if that happened, but still), saying "No!" with such amusement in Terrorform, even excising Cat and Kryten from existance so he could become a millionaire... I think there is a darkness to Lister which is tied to his somewhat willfull blindness. Which is why I wanted to explore a decision Lister makes where he experiences some of the nastiness he's unleashed.

And I do think that Lister is fairly oblivious to his attraction to Rimmer. If Blue is anything to go on, he expresses pretty extreme reactions in rejecting any interest in Rimmer, for whatever reason. And he accepts Kryten's version of events too easily. As if he wants an excuse. He is oblivious to the fact that he is changing his habits for Rimmer (being more clean, not eating spicy food)-- thematically having him change them for Kochanski makes no sense in that episode-- which seems to stem either from denial, lack of self-knowledge or just being dumb. And if he's in deep denial in Blue, I don't see anything jarring him out of it in season eight.

He seems to express some resentment, initially, towards the new Rimmer. Violent resentment. (Re. gang rape)And then I continue that into my story by having Lister decide to mind patch the new Rimmer with the old. Spur of the moment decisions (pouring sexual magnetism on Rimmer in a room full of rapists, violating his mind with a mind patch) that, if you think about it, have pretty nasty consequences and betray a vengeful, or at least cruely indifferent, quality.

Lister feels guilty about what he does, yes, but rarely does it have any impact on him beyond some passing guilt. Even Rimmer starts talking to him again after whatever happened with the convicts, happened.

As for Lister getting off on something repulsive... er... he eats repulsive things. Also, Lister is getting off, in that scene, on the intimacy not the violence. The violence he initiaties is because he's pissed off, not horny. (Although maybe a bit of both at once.) His response to the whole incident is to want to hold Rimmer. He wants to deepen the intimacy so the whole act becomes something he can relate to. Which is a testament to his internal resilliance.

BTW, this is the only non-con(ish) in the whole story. I wouldn't describe it as going "up" from here, but it doesn't enter back into non-con territory.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Eeee... youw... za.

That's a way more negative view of Lister than I could get behind. And I can never get behind the idea that anyone deserves to be raped. Especially not for liking curries. I love curries. *looks over shoulder for the avenging molestation*

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Er... where did the curry thing come from? I thought Kahvi was refering to the smell/taste sensations I was including... not the sexual assault. (Rape indicates penetration.)

I don't think Lister deserves being raped for liking curries?!?!? Also I saw the sexual assault as being a grey area between consensual and non. Further I don't think he _deserved it_ just that it fell out of his actions.

Lister mind patches Rimmer. Rimmer suffers serious psychological issues as a result of Lister's actions. Rimmer puts Lister through a massively nasty experience as a result of being fucked around with. Causality does not imply culpability.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

he eats repulsive things, you mentioned. ;) Rimmer thinks they're repulsive. They're just curries.

Ach, I wouldn't recommend trying to get out of a rape charge by saying there was no penetration... Just about anywhere in the US (at least) you go, it refers to unwanted sexual contact, whether there is penetration or not. Just like prostitution is still prostitution if it's a hand job.

Hmm, that's a heck of a stretch of causality. I mean, it was holoRimmer's idea to mindpatch in the first place, and Lister was even a little reluctant. So it comes back to Rimmer, who is now holo!Rimmer, even more than Lister.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Re: stretch of causality.

Again, Lister's choice. Its not a bad choice, just a grey one. And what Rimmer is now is neither holo!Rimmer or nano!Rimmer but a rather screwed up mush of both.

And, personally, waffles from a garbage can *is* repulsive to me. Oh god was it ever. Gack!

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I don't see how that translates into getting sexually exicted about something that repulses him though. Yes, he's messy, but he's not repulsed by the messiness. If he ate the waffles even though he found them disgusting, I'd see your point.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Mmm - waffles, maple syrup, fresh cream, fresh strawberries...

Current-mush aside, it was holo!Rimmer's cognizant choice to have the patch done, with as full a knowledge of the circumstances and consequences as anyone could have. How is that grey on Lister's part? He's trusting holo!Rimmer, and trying to do the best he can by his friend - it seems to me to be the only halfway reasonable thing to do. What should he have done, if what he did was what caused this string of bad events?

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I've had some time to think about it and I think I realize why this feels cross-purposy...

I think you're expecting Lister's "punishment" to be justified. It isn't. It's massively unfair. And I think the massive unfairness of it all is where Lister's good qualities really get to shine.

Also, I think you're arguing from a meta point of view, whereas I'm arguing from Lister or Rimmer's point of view. Lister feels guilty, guiltier then he has ever felt, he feels as though he deserves being punished. And there is a reason for that. Yes he was backed into a courner, but his secret motivation for mind patching Rimmer is a bit different from the overt motivation.

Rimmer is just screwed up, and the drugs he took were exactly wrong for the effect he wanted. So maybe Bob is to blame. Although I see Bob as sort of an amoral character... Rimmer also still is dealing with the residual effect of being angry at Lister for having put him through it. It isn't until later that the whole story is really revealed to him and everything settles into place.

On the meta-level, no Lister did not deserve to be sexually assaulted. (although, in my own mind he's not objecting to the sex part as much as the violence. In other words it's what happens _after_ the sex that really disturbs him, ie. Rimmer going nuts. The sex itself was of a type he would not normally choose, but then, there's the guilt rearing its head.) Yes his choice was justified, at least on the outward level. And yes it's all massively unfair.

Unfortunately that's sort of my modus operandi as a writer. I take people I like and do massively unfair things to them. *evil grin* But it all turns out in the end.

BTW, sexual assault *is* different then rape, legally. I've been sexually assaulted, but I've never been raped.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I think you're expecting Lister's "punishment" to be justified. It isn't. It's massively unfair.
Which is what I was saying in my original comment, but then you seemed to counter it. So you agree with what I originally wrote? And now you're saying that Lister wants to be punished, but I don't see any evidence of that in the story... I'm a little confused.

I'm assuming Lister wanted the mind-patch to go through because he doesn't want his Rimmer to die.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Lister is not innocent in initiating the chain of events that lead to Rimmer suffering. He was backed into a courner but his motivation was selfish. He does not deserve what happens to him. Niether did Rimmer.

However he has done nasty things to Rimmer. Canonically. Pouring the sexual magnetism virus on him. Destroying his camphor wood chest. Telling him he really didn't care about him one bit. As well as smaller things like... excluding him from the group, teaching Kryten to call him smeghead. Even as Rimmer is given more depth and portrayed sympathetically, suggesting the _audiance_ should give him the benefit of the doubt, Lister remains somewhat adversarial. Which is increasingly less forgivable as we learn how emotionally fragile Rimmer is. And, although he provides *a* moral compass in the series, he still is falliable when it comes to moral choices.

Lister isn't bad. I just don't see him, canonically, being portrayed as lilly white either. And it's more then him being slobby, he's also lazy about other people's emotions.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I don't understand how he could both be backed into a corner and have selfish motivations. That seems mutually exclusive to me. And of course Rimmer doesn't deserve what happened to him. That is not in the least in dispute.

And of course Lister did nasty things to Rimmer! Rimmer and Lister doing nasty things to one another is more or less the premise of the show. Two guys who hate one another, forced to spend time together in close quarters. However, he also does good things to Rimmer, and he's more or less the only character in the show who ever does so, save for Nirvanah. But Nirvanah didn't know Rimmer as well as Lister did. Lister knows the extent to which Rimmmer is a smeghead (which Kryten already thinks btw; Lister merely helps him articulate his feelings), and he still insists on doing right by Rimmer.

Rimmer excludes himself from the group. It's like Kryten puts it in Terrorform: "there's your inability to form long term relationships with anyone; your cowardliness; your lack of charm, honour, or grace; and the awful knowledge that throughout your entire life no one has truly liked you because you are so fundamentally unlikeable."

Even as Rimmer is given more depth and portrayed sympathetically, suggesting the _audiance_ should give him the benefit of the doubt, Lister remains somewhat adversarial.
At the risk of over-using the term, of course he does. The basic nature of their relationship is adversarial. Their bickering is the way they communicate. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about Rimmer, nor that he is inattentive to the fact that Rimmer has changed.

And, although he provides *a* moral compass in the series, he still is falliable when it comes to moral choices.
Isn't this mutually exclusive too?

I think I'm going to need one last "of course" - yes, Lister isn't all good. He's human! He has good sides and bad sides. What we are disagreeing on is what his bad sides are, not wether he has any or not. Lister is lazy, impulsive (not always a bad thing, but it can be), he can be somewhat naiive, he can be too trusting, he's slobby and messy, he's stubborn, devoid of ambition, and he's not very knowledgable. He's intelligent, but he doesn't read, which puts him at a horrible disadvantage. But above all else, he wants to do The Right Thing. His worst nightmare is being a fascist dictator, as evidenced in Back To Reality. He has a very strong sense of right and wrong, which is why he keeps coming back to save Rimmer (for example), even though the rest of the crew thinks they'd be better of without him (which Lister might think sometimes too). And not caring about other people's emotions is definetly not Right.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Haven't you ever done something that made logical sense and you excuse your actions as logical, yet your motivations for doing it were not logical? There's that niggling feeling that, yes it was perfectly justified, but that really wasn't why you did it.

Yep, Lister and Rimmer do nasty things to eachother. I'm not denying that at all. But if Lister wasn't capable of not caring about other people's feelings, he wouldn't respond to Rimmer's nastiness with more nastiness or initiate new nastiness. And he may be aware of Rimmer changing, but he's still pretty mean to the guy. And Rimmer is mean in turn, of course.

I'm also not disagreeing that, essentially, Lister cares about Rimmer very deeply. Just that I recognize Lister is capable of being a complete asshole. I also agree, that when the chips come down to it Lister wants to do the right thing.

Incidentally, I don't think Lister is really doing anything particularly assholish in my story. He's feeling guilty which is clouding his judgement, he's upset and angry and he's very confused by Rimmer's feelings for him and his feelings in return. Since they conflict so very sharply with his understanding of himself as straight and in love with Kochanski.

Since this story is quite a bit about Lister, I guess I had to explore something I saw as interesting about the character. Namely that he could be so mean and so sweet. In fact I wonder if it was a bad habit he picked up, that quality of callousness, after becoming the last human alive because it's not in evidence, really, prior to that. Although maybe he lacked opportunities to express it.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yes, and in those cases my actual motivation would be x, y or whatever. So if Lister's motivation is selfishness, he's not being forced. But if he's forced, the fact that he is forced is what motivates him.

But if Lister wasn't capable of not caring about other people's feelings, he wouldn't respond to Rimmer's nastiness with more nastiness or initiate new nastiness.
Why not? Does caring about other people's feelings mean you should just sit there and take every insult and jibe thrown at you? I'm not saying he's Ghandi.

I don't think Lister does anything particularly - as you say - assholish in your story either, though I felt his reaction to finding out about Kochanski and Rimmer was a little childish. It didn't jarr terribly for me though.

As for him being callous, I commented on that below.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Okay maybe I described the situation incorrectly. But there is a difference between being forced to do something and not wanting to do it and being forced to do something and having secret joy over doing it.

Well, generally if Lister *always* cared about other people's feelings, he wouldn't return nasty for nasty. That's what I'm saying. I'm *not* saying that he is always blind to the feelings of others, just that he can be.

Lister being childish... surely you jest. ;)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yes, you can indeed be forced to do something, and, for example, have it accomplish something you wanted accomplised. But then, are you really being forced? I'm being a little philosophical here.

When I argue with my boyfriend, I still care about his feelings. I don't stop caring about them just because I'm angry with him. Ditto with Rimmer and Lister's bickering.

Lister can sometimes be childish yes, but to varying degrees. I thought it was verging on OTT, but only on the verge.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

OTT?

The bickering? Yes. Some of Lister's other behaviors, I don't think so.

If, at that moment, he cared about Rimmer's feelings he wouldn't have cut up the camphor chest in Marooned. Sometimes Lister feels justified in doing things that he knows will be hurtful to Rimmer.

I think part of the problem with the first half of my story is that Lister is being pretty passive. He hasn't yet stepped up to the plate to actually engage anything, either Rimmer's behavior, some outward enemy or his own inner conflicts.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Over The Top.

I think what he did in Marooned is one of the worst things that Lister ever did to Rimmer. Even worse than the events of Terrorform in Terrorform, after all, they are forced to say they love Rimmer - well, we've discussed this below. Whereas in Marooned Lister has a very clear choice. He doesn't have to destroy Rimmer's chest, but he does so anyway. When he realizes what he's done, he immediately starts feeling guilty (http://home.online.no/~cobos/Marooned/M31.jpg), however, so I think he knows that too.

I see his actions as a combination of desperation (the guitar is one of the few things he has left to care about, after all), and impulsiveness; he sees his chance. That's no excuse though.

It's sad, because in series III they seem to have grown together quite a bit. I think Marooned ruins that quite a bit.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Of all the series, I like 3 the best. And yes, it was horrible seeing them grow together a bit and then having it all dashed at the end. Ugh.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

I think I was thinking more of sexual battery in the general sense. CA and WA are a skosh ambiguous about non-penetrating sexual contact, but from how I read it, unwanted genital contact can fall under rape in WA. Of course, bestiality is legal up here, so what do we know. But I'm going more from the moral side. From my moral side, unwanted sexual contact is just that, and penetration or not does not mitigate the moral wrong. That's just my view.

From what I'm getting here, you seem to be saying that Lister is feeling all guilty over what he did to Rimmer, and that hangs on him and makes him feel like he desrves what happens. But you've also said elsewhere that you find Lister to be basically callous, and that his 'wrongs' don't hang on him. That contradicts, to me.

To me - my ramble here - Lister is very pragmatic. He cares about situations to the extent that he can do something about them. He doesn't let guilt weigh on him uselessly as Rimmer does (Justice). I think that Rimmer would see that as callous, but Rimmer is very hung up on a somewhat childish sense of Assigning Blame (Backwards-book, the my-death-is-your-fault in The End, his constant blaming of things other than himself (mom, school, brothers) for his failures in life - and I don't really see him move beyond that until Tikka). Lister almost instinctively does the Right Thing, for the most part. The one big exception, of course, is Marooned, but it stands out for me because it is such an exception. He's generally better to Rimmer than anyone else in life or death is (Nirvanah is the only one who comes close, and she doesn't know Rimmer as well as Lister does). I just see Lister as having roughly similar thoughts to what we did 'meta-wise' above - I think he would worry more about what to do now to mitigate the damage of the patch, rather than worry about a decision that was the best one he could make at the time. I see this nagging subconscious I-deserve-to-be-punished as more of a Rimmer thing (Justice again) than a Lister thing.

"Irony" is a reversal of expectations, and I believe that was the fundamental reversal of Red Dwarf. The neat, tidy, caucasian, proper-britspeak fellow is the smeghead, while the slobby, curry-loving, black scouser is fundamentally a better person. They're both highly, highly flawed, or it wouldn't be Red Dwarf (and we wouldn't have that sense of At Least I'm Not Like Them) - but (they make an anvilicious point of this in Me Squared and Rimmerworld) the more time Rimmer spends with Lister, the more he becomes a halfway bearable person.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I never said Lister was basically callous, just that he could be callous at times. Sometimes it's amusing, with Kryten and the "I'll give you fifteen" comment, sometimes it's less then amusing.

I agree that Lister is practical, pragmatic (to a degree) and upbeat. But I disagree that it's impossible for him to be dragged down to a dysfunctional level.

In this situation he's stuck. There's nothing he can do for Rimmer, and he wants to. Normally he would be able to get over the guilt by doing something positive, but there is nothing for him to do, to deflect it, so it eats at him. Even pragmatic, positive people who are denied a way of taking action can be dragged down into uncertainty.

Rimmer hasn't stopped being pissed off at Lister since the mind patch, which keeps the issue fresh in Lister's mind. Plus he doesn't know what action to take to repair the damage and, for the first time, he really feels responsible for Rimmer's _psychological_ state. Rimmer is well and truly pissed off at him. And this time Lister is taking it to heart.

Once Lister realizes what he should do, he'll probably feel a lot better and more himself.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

At what times do you think he acts callous? You brought up Terrorform, which I address below. I don't see it anywhere except for Marooned.

I understand what you're saying about Rimmer being pissed off and trying to guilt up Lister, but I don't see that as being enough to drag Lister into this guilt-trap. Rimmer gets pissed off at Lister for what he thinks Lister's done to him over and over again in canon. He gets pissed off with the death thing in The End. He gets pissed off at Lister for not having his faith in Aliens. He gets pissed off at Lister at the prospect of leaving him on for the trip back to Earth, and gets just as pissed off at the prospect of turning him off. He gets pissed off at Lister in Thanks For The Memory. He gets pissed at Lister for not wanting to lend him a body again after the first go-'round in Bodyswap. He gets pissed when they won't go to Blue Alert. He gets pissed when Lister won't go along with the drills. He gets pissed when Lister wants to board the Simulant ship. He gets pissed at Lister about the general situation in Out Of Time. Through all of this, Lister keeps a fairly decent sense of perspective, IMO. He only lets things that really are his fault (like TFTM) bother him at all, and just gets annoyed at the rest. I don't think that he really has a good reason to think that this situation is his fault - I can see him more reasonably getting frustrated at holo!Rimmer for putting them both in this plight. He is locked in prison, yes - but VIII is, to a great extent, about the things that Lister can get away with even locked in prison. He has his connections, he has a good relationship with the skutters - these are avenues he could try, just as he did in Pete, Krytie TV, and Only The Good. Just IMO.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I re-watched the ending of Terrorform. Lister was smiling and his tone was jovial, not straight faced. Yes, he could have been interpreting what Rimmer said literally, but Rimmer also said "you didn't really mean what you said back there" which would include all the "I love you man" stuff. I think this, plus Marooned, plus the sexual magnetism virus in BITR, plus some more offhand comments he's made here and there add up to a bit of a callous streak. Not a "basically his personality is callous" but more a, "yes he can be callous at times." But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Nor does it interfer in Lister's sense of right and wrong.

Why does Lister let Rimmer's pissed-off-edness get to him *this* time? Because I think, even if it's just subliminally, Lister has come to realize he cares for Rimmer. Then add in the fact that he also feels responsible for what Rimmer is going thorough, as he did in TFTM (and to a lesser extent in BITR, where he couldn't rest till Rimmer was responding to him again.)

As for him getting frustrated at holo!Rimmer, holo!Rimmer's plan was to force him to comply, thus removing all of Lister's own culpability. Instead Lister fought back and made the decision himself. He made the decision, regardless of holo!Rimmer's guilting or rationals, _Lister_ was the one who pushed the button. And his sense of right and wrong won't let him forget it.

What can Lister actually do? I don't think it's as easy for Lister as, "yes I did this to Rimmer, yes he's suffering, yes I care about him now... but, I can't do anything about it so I'm not going to worry about it."

In fact it would be callous of him if he did get over it that easily. ;) That, I think, would be the actions of a _basically_ callous personality. Rather then one that was occasionally callous to a person they didn't really like in the first place.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

So which is it - he's occasionally callous to someone he doesn't like, or he has a bit of a callous streak?

Again, if that's what you think that Lister would feel, why not put it in the story as his actual thoughts? I honestly think that would make things a lot clearer.

As for the end of Terrorform, I honestly don't know what to tell you. I very recently watched it myself, and very closely too, as I was capping it for ccharlespics. When you cap an episode, you tend to see things that aren't as evident when you're just watching it, because you pause it, put it on slo-mo, etc. And I was surprised at how mellow Lister looked, because I remembered him as laughing too. *shrugs*

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

It is this... he has a callous streak, but with people he likes it just comes out as amusing: getting puss all over the Cat, the "I'll give you fifteen" moment with Kryten. Each moment suggests he doesn't really care about the Cat's or Kryten's discomfort, but not in a malicious way.

With Rimmer it can get... mean. Which is understandable because, in cannon, they are adversarial and don't like eachother all that much. (Until season eight where they develop a friendship.) And Rimmer is pretty difficult to get on with.

As for terrorform, it's the voice that gives the impression, I think. You miss that when you're just looking at pictures.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

OK. In that case I strongly disagree, for previously stated reasons. I also disagree with your interpretation of his reactions in Terrorform, but that happens. People can see the reaction/body language and interpret wildly different things from it. That's not to say I don't think what happened in Terrorform was wrong, but I've been over that too.

In short, it seems to me like the differences in our view of Lister is that you see him as having - as you say - a callous streak, and interpret his actions in view of that. I don't, so I interpret his actions in view of that. This is one of the reasons why I feel it is important to know what Lister is thinking, so that you can better communicate your view.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

I still don't buy that interpretation for three reasons. Well, more like two reasons and one lemma (#1), so here we go...

1 - G/N are writing this. The can be very choosy about phrasing. It doesn't mean they are in every instance, but it means that at any point they can be, and for the reasons below, I think they are in this case.

2 - G/N write with sci-fi as a metaophor. This isn't like Asimov or Niven, who write speculative sci-fi (take some basic precepts and see what might come out of them unexpectedly, see what the societal changes are, etc.). This is more like Piers Anothony (Proton/Phaze) or Ursula LeGuin (who has an introduction, in my copy of The Left Hand Of Darkness, about just this kind of sci-fi, which she calls 'descriptive'). They're not looking at the scientific basis of psi-moons or cloning or time travel - they're using those as vehicles to do character exploration. The psi-moon was their way of showing Rimmer's character. The psi-moon was scary and nasty and skanky, and was there specifically to show what a messed-up person Rimmer is. You can't walk through that and say that Rimmer is a good person, deep down, or not such a bad old stick. We just had an entire ep that gives anyone halfway sane the answer to the question he asks at the end of the ep. Loveable? Yep. A decent guy? Nope.

3 - It goes along perfectly with how Lister treats Rimmer elsewhen. He is annoyed and frustrated with all of Rimmer's faults (which he expresses outright), but he still cares about the guy (which he expresses by his actions). Terrorform itself shows both sides - he is annoyed and frustrated with Rimmer for getting himself into this situation, but runs in to rescue him with only nominal thought for his own well-being when the other two are fine with just letting Rimmer go. So the idea that he loves and cares for Rimmer, but thinks he's still a very messed-up guy, makes complete sense to me. I think it's one of the general premises behind the series, actually.


To the other point, I don't think it's callous to not be guilt-wracked to the point of thinking you need to be punished. Feeling bad about an event, being frustrated about it - these are very distinct from crippling guilt.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to give up the ghost on this argument. Ultimately I need to prioritize writting the story, not arguing my interpretation of the story.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Just another thought as I sit here dealing with insomnia and the after-effects of my little scone binge yesterday...

Lister is also being tag-teamed right now. The two people he loves the most (as far as I can see) are *both* pissed off at him for roughly the same reasons.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Just an aside - it strikes me that here we are, discussing what Lister thinks/feels/does not think/feel in your story. Perhaps if you put this down as actual thoughts, or let us see more of his thoughts, your interpretation of him would be clearer? Because I think that's part of what is causing confusion here.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, I mentioned that earlier, and I still think it would be helpful.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Lister mind patches Rimmer. Rimmer suffers serious psychological issues as a result of Lister's actions.

Yeah, I'm really not getting that part in particular. The only person in that opening scene who had any real grasp of consequences was holo!Rimmer, and he goes to great lengths to make sure the mind-patch happens - guilting Lister, shooting nano!Rimmer. I don't see how that falls onto Lister.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

he _did_ choose to initiate the pain and confusion Rimmer is dealing with now.

Yes, and as you make a point of in the story, he has no idea what the concequences of that choice would be. There was no way he could know. He made a difficult choice in a difficult situation, and quite honestly, I can't say I would have chosen any different. Would it have been better if he would have let Ace's knowledge die? I'm assuming not, or you wouldn't have put it in the story.

Lister felt the warm slick of Rimmer's semen slide down the side of his thigh -- I've got another bloke's spunk all over me - and the feel of it sent him over the top.
That seemed to me to indicate that he got off on being repulsed by it.

I have to say that I pretty much disagree with everything in your characterization of Lister as you explain it here. It is more of less the opposite of how I see him. I could go through it point by point, but I think we just fundametally disagree on the basic nature of the character.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Is there something inherently repulsive about semen? I'd have to disagree with you there. Although I have to agree on some level, Lister is getting off on the _taboo_ quality of it all. But not the violence or the anger.

And yes, I'm sure we do fundementally disagree with the basic nature of Lister. I don't see him as, necessarily, a sensitive and emotionally astute character. I think he has his emotional blind-spots and his pranking can have a distinctly nasty edge to it. On the same note, there are some qualities to his personality that are faboo. The same emotional blindness can both skate over other's feelings _and_ easily forgive others their slights against him.

Finally, yes, Lister was backed into a corner, and _no_ we can't really blame him for his choice. But it still caused Rimmer considerable hardship. Something which Rimmer sees more clearly then Lister's rational.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I don't think so, but it was the male aspect, the taboo of the thing (as you mention) that I was referring to. And that's another part of Lister characterization that I disagree with.

Lister has a lot of bad qualities. I just don't see emotional blindness and nastiness as being among them. Rather, I think the entire point of the character is to be the moral compass of the show; contasting with his scruffy behavior and appearance.

OK. I was a little confused by your "not to belabor the point" comment.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Sorry about being confusing. I just figured I *was* belaboring Lister's guilt, in the story at least, over having mind-patched Rimmer.

I'm also not sure I follow your first sentence? Doing something you never thought you would do has a certain forbidden resonance that is arousing, without being revolting. You don't see Lister as viewing himself as straight?

I thought the _descriptions_ upset you, and I figured they were in-character because I see Lister as someone who would be attracted by strong earthy smells(as well as tastes), even smells that other people would find revolting.

Anyway, thanks again for your input. I'll probably reword some stuff in C-tower to strengthen up thematic ties to the confrontation scene in Algorithm.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Oh, and... after chatting with my husband I think nastiness or cruelty are the wrong words. Callousness may be the right word.

Lister acts, on occasion, with mind-boggling callousness.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't get any indication that Lister felt guilty about what he had done. Hence my confusion, perhaps.

Doing something you never thought you would do has a certain forbidden resonance that is arousing, without being revolting.
To everyone? I don't feel that way. Sexuality is a very individual and personal thing; I think it would be wrong to generalize. I just don't see Lister as the sort of person that would see anything as taboo to the point where it'd be alluring, if you see what I mean.

You don't see Lister as viewing himself as straight?
Not nessecarily. I don't really have any strong opinions on this matter; I'd buy any sexual identity you would care to give him. Personally, I don't think the term "straight" will be used by the time Lister is born, but I don't expect other people to cater to that view. :)

What disturbed me was the fact that Lister seemed to be enjoying a sexual act I saw as non-con. I was also disturbed by the fact that the encounter happened in the first place, but I realize that it was written to be that way.

Lister acts, on occasion, with mind-boggling callousness.
Again, I can only say that I strongly disagree. If there is any chacter anywhere that is the exact opposite of callous, I'd say it was Lister.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I used the warning "non-con" because I knew it could be interpreted that way. I don't, personally, see it as non-con. But others could. If it really *was* non-con, Lister is pretty damn tough and could put up a far better fight then that. It was sex he'd prefer not to have, but sex he did out of a sense of guilt. (If you remember Los' story, I see it sort of like that. Vorador would rather _not_ have allowed Janos to penetrate him. But he allowed it for Janos.)

I agree that in most futuristic universes "straight" is a term that would be an anachronism. But Lister *does* use it to describe himself, so it must still have meaning in the universe he exists within. And, yes I see what you mean.

Finally, what do you call the scene in Terrorform if not callous? Rimmer hadn't done anything particularly nasty to anyone at that point aside from his usual craven cowardice.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

How about 'being honest'? If he really didn't like Rimmer, would it be better to pretend that he did?

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I think, in that instance, after pretending to like Rimmer to save his skin... it might be the considerate thing to do.

Particularly after having a rather graphic illustration of how much his friendship means to Rimmer.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

And have Rimmer be even more hurt when he figures out the truth? I feel the slight in Terroform was the fact that they had to lie to Rimmer in the first place (and what a sad thing that was - to have to lie to someone in order to tell them you care about them), not that they were honest afterwards. It was inevitable, but it that's where the nasty lay, IMO.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

He seemed pretty jovial about the whole thing though. :( I think that's what got me. The big grin as he dashes Rimmer's hopes.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

As did all the others. The humor lies in the fact that it really is that unthinkable that they could love Rimmer (or so Lister thinks at the time, presumably). Which is terribly, terribly sad. You described it as laddishness, which I can get behind. Who's to say what he really thinks though? (Lister, that is.) I feel it's open to interpretation.

Action shot (http://www.saers.com/~kat/Terrorform/TF43.jpg).

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

The more I look at Terrorform, the more I think - eh, it's not as straightforward as it looks. Lister says to Rimmer, in that scene, "I really care about you," and "I really, really love you." Then, at the end, Rimmer says, "I mean, you didn't really feel that deep down I'm an OK sort of bloke; I'm not such a bad old stick once you get to know me." That's what Lister says "No" to. And I don't see a contradiction. I think he does care about and love Rimmer - but he still thinks that Rimmer isn't an OK sort of bloke deep down or not such a bad old stick. He's a smeghead and a git, and Lister nonetheless cares about him.

The audience laughs, but looking at that - Lister isn't giggling or laughing or relishing the moment, IMO. He delivers that line in a really straight manner.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

What I'm trying to get at is that his repulsion level is a bit higher then our own.

Remember him eating the curry-beast? He's capable of overlooking, to us, what would be unbearably repulsive in order to get to the good stuff.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Erm, yes, that's exactly what I was saying up there. *points*