Gestaltfic: Alexander. PG.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Title: Alexander.
Authors: kahvi and roadstergal
Rating: PG.
Disclaimer: We do not now and will never in the future own them or make any money from this.
Spoilers: Legion and Marooned.
Note: This came out of a discussion about being a Chief Eunuch. Set in VI.

It should feel normal. It should feel nice and calm and boring, but it didn't.

Comments

[tawg.livejournal.com]

Oooh, lovely. I really liked the way the two of you handle the characters, no matter what type of fic you're writing, there's always a lot of awesome Lister-Rimmer interaction that just sucks me right in. And, to be honest, the subject matter was beautifully handled - the moral issues of truthful fantasy-crushing.

That said, reading this at uni probably wasn't the best idea, though I'm sure my startled gasps and small giggles were of much amusement to those around me.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! :D

Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) says in his guide to creating humor that something which elicits a physical response is a keeper, as far as humor is concerned. Looks like we did well, then! :D

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the lovely feedback! And random giggles in the day are a good thing. :)

[smaych.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this fantastic story! Here are some of my thoughts from reading it, in no particular order. Sorry if it's a little verbose, or if I'm getting things hopelessly wrong :)

-Overall I really liked this story. I love the Rimmer/Lister interactions, I love that they are trying to work each other out and failing. I think this is a really good example of how a lot of their arguments come from frustration because of this, like here:

"That cold, unchanging expression, belied by eyes that seemed to scream something in a language Lister did not understand."

This line really stuck with me. I think a lot of people gloss over the concept that the boys, like anyone, would try to analyse and understand each other, and a lot of the beauty of this story comes from seeing the characters through each other's eyes.

-"he started leafing through the magazine he'd picked it up on his way out of his quarters"

I didn't get the grammar here, should it be “he started leafing through the magazine he'd picked up” or “he started leafing through the magazine – he'd picked it up” or am I just reading it wrong?

-The Kryten bits are so perfect, I don't know how you do it.

-The sherbet made me laugh out loud.

-I think Rimmer shares his past life story a little easily with Kryten, he seems more hesitant in Marooned, he says he's never told anyone before. Then again, he doesn't really see Kryten as a person, so maybe that makes sense.

-Also, I don't know why Lister “couldn't not tell Rimmer the truth” about what he's read. It seems a little cruel. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like a lot of Lister's cruelty to Rimmer comes either out of humour/boredom or as a retort to something that Rimmer's said/done. If the reason is either of these, I think it could be pointed out a bit more for the idiots like me who didn't spot it :) Then again, I can see Lister not understanding that he's being cruel until it is too late, and then not wanting to back down to Rimmer.

I actually see this as being very like Lister's reaction to Kryten's belief in silicon heaven, but there he had more of a moral point I think, as Kryten had been lied to and didn't have a choice, whereas Rimmer's is a personal belief. I'd have thought Lister would be more open-minded, but I'm not sure what I'm basing that on now I think about it.

-The paragraph which begins:

"Why was he here? Why couldn't he just let it go"

I'm not sure whose perspective this paragraph is supposed to be from.

-I think the argument they have is really successful as you create sympathy for both sides.

-The ending is just gorgeous, as always with your stories, and fits so perfectly with the story and the season. For me, this is what makes it an excellent piece of writing as opposed to an excellent piece of fanfiction.

Thank you so much for writing this!

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

First of all, thank you for all this lovely feedback! It is very much apreciated. :D

I think a lot of people gloss over the concept that the boys, like anyone, would try to analyse and understand each other, and a lot of the beauty of this story comes from seeing the characters through each other's eyes.
Yah - for us, this is part of the appeal of co-writing a story; you get to explore the minds and points of view of each character in a very unique way. They don't speak the same language; truly they don't. It's fascinating.

I had to read that a couple of times before I realized what was wrong; the "it" in the magazine sentence is superflous. It should read: "he started leafing through the magazine he'd picked up on his way out of his quarters" ;)

Oh gods, yes; the sherbet! I loved that too. roadstergal at her best.

I think Rimmer shares his past life story a little easily with Kryten
roadstergal can answer this one better than me, but as I saw it, I don't think he's that aware of the fact that he is sharing it. He's just getting riled up by Kryten, and by the end of their argument, he just wants to make sure that damn meddling mechanoid understands that Rimmer knows exactly what he's talking about! He gets kind of lost in his anger and irritation. But again, I'm not the one with the Rimmspertise!

Also, I don't know why Lister “couldn't not tell Rimmer the truth” about what he's read. [...]I can see Lister not understanding that he's being cruel until it is too late, and then not wanting to back down to Rimmer.
Lister doesn't understand it at all. I don't think he ever would, even if Rimmer tried to explain it to him. As he sees it, he's doing Rimmer a favor. He doesn't understand why Rimmer would want to believe in something that isn't true. Lister is written as a die-hard atheist, which is part of why I think he'd have a major problem with this. Not only is Rimmer losing himself in a past life, which Lister thinks is a load of rubbish anyway; he's losing himself in a past life that could not have taken place even if there was such a thing. He doesn't understand (as he says) why someone would possibly not want the truth; would prefer unreality.

As I see it, Lister can't not tell Rimmer the truth, because to Lister, not doing so would be morally objectionable. And Lister has this almost pathological need to see justice (or what he sees as justice) done.

it seems like a lot of Lister's cruelty to Rimmer comes either out of humour/boredom or as a retort to something that Rimmer's said/done.
I disagree. Well, not about the last bit; he does take revenge. But I think most of Lister's actions that end up being cruel are just his way of trying to Do The Right Thing (as above). Though yes; some of it might be out of frustration too (as you say; humor and boredom), but I think part of that is him wishing (as you noted in your story that I hope to see here soon ;) ) that Rimmer would just lighten up and 'get with it' as it were.

We alternate POV religiously from paragraph to paragraph; the person speaking is the person with the POV. In 99% of all cases, that means POV will alternate between paragraphs. In some rare cases, you'll get a chunk of paragraphs from one POV. But this one follows the pattern, so I'm a little curious why this one in particular doesn't work for you?

Again, thank you for taking the time to comment so extensively; it's what we feed on. *munch munch* ;)

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the lovely detailed feedback!

D'oh on the magazine! Corrected.

It's pretty much as kahvi said - Rimmer was just irate and wanted to give Kryten the smackdown. Where Marooned is concerned, though - I don't think Rimmer was ever reluctant to tell the story. Lister didn't have to pry to hear it - in fact, he didn't even ask to hear it. Rimmer tells Lister he's telling Lister something he's never told anyone else - but IMO, he wanted everyone to know, and nobody wanted to listen to the smeghead's sodding dull stories. So I do think that he never told anyone else, as he said - but I think it's not for the reason he's pretending.

I think kahvi addressed the Lister bit better than I could.

*blush* Thank you so much! Kat is terribly fun to write with.

(And re: the email - of course you can friend me. May I friend back atcha?)

[smaych.livejournal.com]

Thanks for answering so well, I agree with you about Rimmer probably wanting to tell people. I re-watched the episode and at the end he does talk about the Alexander the Great thing in front of Kryten so yeah, he probably doesn't have a problem with it :)

As for the Lister thing, I agree there too now that it's been explained to me - sometimes I do find Lister hard to understand as I don't share the same ideas of right and wrong that he does often.

The paragraph with the perspective that I couldn't figure out was mainly because I didn't know about your system of alternating, Rimmer was the last person to speak and I could read it as him whinging about Lister. But now I know, it's all cleared up :)

Thanks again, and friended! Feel free to friend me back.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Well, you shouldn't have to be told how something in a story works; that should be self-evident, if it is well written. So thanks for pointing that out; constantly swapping pespectives can be very confusing, and it's something I'm very aware of when I write and edit these things.

Rimmer and Lister have very different ways of seeing and relating to the world; that's what makes it so hard for them to communicate. It can be terribly frustrating to write, sometimes, because you just want to shout at them!

[musicisavictim.livejournal.com]

What exactly is that german thing where you feel happy about someone's misery?
whether or not they should open up that strange glowing book they found covered in blood at the bottom of a coffin in an abandoned basement of a haunted house..... half a block down the street from Gary's baitshop.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Schadenfreude - or skadefryd as we say here in Norway. :)
Red Dwarf has a lot of it, methinks. Thankee for feedback!

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

As she says! And thank you for the feedback!

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Knowing that we are being read and apreciated it what makes this worth while. I mean, I write for myself (and writing with roadstergal is a riot), but comments like these help. ;)

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

*blush* Thank you much for unlurking and saying so!

[(Anonymous)]

I have to say, you hit on the funniest idea about Alexander's favorite eunuch; having Rimmer find out what that particular eunuch really did (I hesitate to imagine what would happen if he ever found out the potential connotations to the word "rimmer".) I loved the whole harem fantasy. It's nicely evocative of Terrorform, and has a slightly pathetic Rimmerish quality (fantasies about being a eunuch in a harem?)

I also completely adored Kryten's reaction to the human religious thing. Too perfect! The argument at the end was very well done. I can see the weird Lister-logic of thinking that if he can just explain how it's all fake, he can fix Rimmer, the way he's always trying to fix Kryten, and he wanted to fix the cat people's fake religion. And Rimmer was spot on. Plus, the last line was amazing.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Once I heard what it was, it was irresistible. And let's hope no one tells him...

As for being a eunuch in a harem, I think that fits. roadstergal sees him as being closeted, and I agree. So what better way for him to have a fantasy involving women without having to worry about the fact that he wasn't terribly aroused by them?

Thank you very much! :D

[(Anonymous)]

Rimmer? A bit closted? Ridiculous. He had sex! With women! Twice!

Okay, maybe his lower self did go around in a corset and stockings, and threaten to "have" Lister. Maybe his higher self and Lister's higher self did spout declarations of love for each other. Maybe the man is a bit fixated on Alexander the Great, and men in uniform. Maybe, when encountering a parallel version of himself that had everything he ever wanted, Rimmer just assumed that version had to be gay and was going to sleep with Lister. Maybe he did spend years sleeping in the same room as the guy he claims he can't stand, and go running back to sleep with him, underneath him in the same room the moment he was unhappy sleeping next door. Maybe his subconcious did once trap him in a scenario where he was nearly naked, oiled, and tied to a post, and Lister had to charge in and rescue him, guns blazing, after which Lister had to save everyone by telling Rimmer how much he loved him.

But none of that means anything! He had sex with women, twice!

Okay, I'm finished chanelling Rimmer. You may now go about your business.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

*dies* Dear lord, this post made me happy...