Making sense of "Back to Earth"

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know that subject line is kind of an oxymoron, since making sense out of a sitcom is probably being ambitious, but I can't help trying to figure things out. *G*

Since this is a slash community, I'm curious about your take on the Lister and Rimmer relationship and changes between the series and this movie. (Note: I'm going through old posts, still, and I'm certain you longtime members have already hashed all this out, but I haven't gotten quite up to 2009 yet - and at any rate, who's likely to go back that far and look at any question a n00b might ask in the comments to any relevant entries?)

It's plain that Lister is unhappy, or dissatisfied at least, by the events of BTE. I have not read/listened to any creator remarks as to why this would be, so forgive me if this has been explained by the canon sources - but I'm guessing it's probably mostly down to having been stuck out in deep space for over 20 (conscious) years, which would be nearly half of Lister's life - and not only stuck on a ship, away from his home, but with very few companions. There aren't many of us who could have all our daily social needs satisfied by just five people (if you count Holly - speaking of which, why wasn't a Holly around in BTE? Hmm ...).

What I found interesting was the argument he and Rimmer have following the diving-bell incident. I know it's mostly written for laughs - "oh, look, here's Rimmer being a jerk yet again and failing to see how his actions left the others in needless danger" - but since it's my right as a fan to look for things in the source material and interpret them in various ways, I guess I'll try. *G* The wording is what struck me as interesting:

(paraphrasing from memory) Rimmer: Is this about you, again? Can't you see I need some "me" time?

This seems terribly callous, but if Lister's been moping around for a while, maybe it's possible Rimmer's been doing what has worked in the past to bust him out of a funk - and instead of working, it's just been contributing to the "sameness" of Lister's annoying life, which has in turn become irritating to Rimmer? (Although it can't be all thunderclouds and rainshowers for Lister, if he can plan that elaborate tomato prank and get such a kick out of it.) Lister's always been the cheerful one, and I can imagine it would really throw a spanner (pun not intended) in the works of how Rimmer sees things if Lister becomes the depressed one.

Also, what's the deal with Kochanski, anyway? We can figure Lister's not wholly depressed because of her death/departure - I mean, the whole reason she left was to get away from him being like that. (a) If he was with her, why would he be depressed? It's half his lifelong dream, supposedly. (b) If he WASN'T with her, why did he not make some sort of move in all those years she was aboard, and then suddenly decide he wanted to get her back? (That bit sort of screwed me up, too - he's depressed being on Red Dwarf with just the guys, stuck out in deep space, but he chooses to go back to that when he could stay in the "alternate reality" with a Kochanski - it's not like the one he's pursuing is the original pinball-smile anyway, right? - and kids, and Earth, and such?)

Anyway, I hope at least someone hasn't already discussed this to death previously and will chat back at me. :-D

Comments

[missflibble.livejournal.com]

Lauren already knows my thoughts on their relationship in BTE (I've tainted her reading on it beyond repair, mwaha)

In the first scene with the tomato prank, Rimmer berates Lister, asking him whether it was worth spending hours of planning for just a few seconds of pleasure.

And then comes my tragic mishearing which has skewed my entire reading of the specials.

Lister: Sounds like the last time *we* had sex

GAH.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yeah ... I kind of picked up on that, too, LOL! (Hey, he just says the last time Rimmer had sex - he could easily be referring to the two of them!) I had stretched my logic circuits to wonder if maybe part of Lister's problem is that the two of them had something going and it's become stale, or something went wrong or they're in the middle of a major wobbly during all this, or some such, I confess ...

[laurenthemself]

Oh pffft. Like I need your help to taint everything beyond repair.

/lies on back, looking up at gutter. sigh.

I think Kochanski probably left because in the end Lister just wasn't her Dave. They were together, though, because if they weren't and he's still pining over her solely because of what they had all those years ago... that just strikes me as way too pathetic even for him.

The fact that BtE is still so like old Dwarf is both a blessing and a curse; it's a blessing because it's the dynamic we love, and it's a curse because while we saw plenty of character growth over the original run of the show, it seems like nothing's really happened in those nine years. Which of course it hasn't, because it's all been handwaved away. It gives us plenty of room to speculate, but it's hard to speculate when we've only been dropped a few hints. I mean, hell, even the beginnings of 'Backwards', 'Psirens' and 'Tikka to Ride' in their own ways had some sort of explanation. Then all of a sudden with BtE it's nine years later and there's a Mary Sue on board being a bossy bitch.

The trouble is that while RD continuity can be hilariously nonexistent, this time it's frustrating, because while we can throw out all sorts of mad speculation, the actual plot growth is harder to pin down. Granted, I'm glad that BtE wasn't all infodump, and I thought that explaining Holly and Kochanski's absences was reasonably well done, but there're so many more 'what ifs' in there that need to be worked out.

But this is why we have fanfic, of course.

[missflibble.livejournal.com]

Oh pffft. Like I need your help to taint everything beyond repair.

/lies on back, looking up at gutter. sigh.

Tee-hee

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I liked that the movie was like the old series in some ways, but in others ... I feel like it missed out on character growth. (Of course, there's the whole question of whether this Rimmer is The Original or another created after Original went off to be Ace. *shrug*) And I don't buy the whole "oh, it's just for shits and giggles anyway," because the original books/scripts were too well-written. (I'm betting many of you don't buy that either, or you wouldn't spend time writing fanfic or discussing plot points.)

I think Kochanski probably left because in the end Lister just wasn't her Dave. They were together, though, because if they weren't and he's still pining over her solely because of what they had all those years ago... that just strikes me as way too pathetic even for him.

There was a time that Rimmer used to basically tell him the same thing, perhaps before he became more self-aware and realized his own pathetic shortcomings and maybe felt like he didn't have any room to talk about THAT. Or, it's an agreement they have - Lister doesn't mention gazpacho soup, Rimmer doesn't editorialize about the Kochanski Dream.

I wonder if Naylor really is going to produce a season 9 and 10 to explain the holes .....

[jma.livejournal.com]

I saw it as Original Rimmer - but that might just be because I had decided Ace came back to save Nano Rimmer and they switched.

I saw bte on my time netbook on a plane (on my honeymoon!) so I couldn't tell if it was a hard or soft light Rimmer and it seemed to flick between the two (he used the skutters in one scene, but picked something up the next) so I decided that Ace's light-bee had been damaged and switched randomly between modes and that's why he had to retire.

It fits okay enough for me.


The other alternative is that Listernever got over loosing two Rimmers, although he never realised that was what was wrong. He ended up driving Krissie away te way people do when they are hurt about something they can't face) or perhaps he couldn't be close to her out of a deep-seated fear he'd loose her as well (wich sems to have been realised).

Or, hell, what if Holly was originally right and Rimmer really was the one person who could keep Lister sane and loosing him puhd him off the deep end a bit and Kochanski couldn't deal with that. That could be the impetus for Holly to reboot another Rimmer?

I actually like the possibilities.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

A friend and I are getting ready to post a story that takes place between the end of S8 and BTE (actually, BTE might not happen, you'd have to decide yourself!) that sort of addresses something you brought up, but I can't say much about it. :-D

Did you notice when Lister was at the memorium in BTE talking to Kochanski's photo, there was also a photo of the original Rimmer?

[missflibble.livejournal.com]

So glad I'm on someone's wavelength ^__^

*nods* A very interesting reading. Me likey. Fic?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I wasn't thinking of fic, really, and then you mentioned it ... and now all I can think of is Rimmer clutching that severed pink tentacle while bitching at Lister and what dirty thoughts that might set off in Dave's mind (and mine). Dammit.

/eyes plotbunny pile with trepidation

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

What surprised me about Back to Earth is how much of the plotline is focused on Rimmer's fear. Not fear for his own safety, per se, but his fear of watching Lister age and die. On my second viewing of part one, I really felt for him (in between giggling), because I got the feeling that he really was scared of impending danger and potential harm coming to Lister. "You wasn't even there!" "I had to watch it." Maybe I've read too much angst-ridden fanfiction, but in another context, that dialogue would have a whole different meaning.

And Lister misses the point entirely.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Now I do remember his remarks about having to watch them die in the water tank, imagining it. And at the end, when the 3 of them wake up and Lister isn't, I noticed as soon as Rimmer wakes up, he turns and watches Lister with what looks like trepidation. What else did you pick up in the episode, I'm curious? (I've only seen it the twice.)

Do you think Lister ever took Rimmer seriously? (He seems to once in a while in the series, but I'm not sure if it's a long-term thing at all.) And if so, when do you think he stopped?

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

Lister just seems to be seriously detached from Rimmer (and Cat and Kryten) and not himself by the time of Back to Earth. He's focusing on his own pain: getting "old and fat" and not going anywhere, the fact that new!Kris is dead (or possibly shuffled off). He doesn't seem particularly phased by the new hologram's plan to wipe Rimmer's hologramatic disc AND destroy his lightbee AND scatter the remnants of him across space and time. He's even vaguely amused, while, say, series 5 Lister was unwilling to wipe Rimmer completely even with the prospect of bringing Doctor Lanstrom's hologram onboard. Also, Rimmer seems particularly stung when the new hologram criticizes his job of making Lister happy. That was not his original mission but he never corrects her or vehemently protests. And he looks the most worried when Lister is still in the coma everyone else has woken from.

I think Lister takes certain things about Rimmer seriously. Nothing that was in this sory arc, though.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you want to be just purely effing mercenary with these characters, you could say Rimmer worries about Lister because he's still convinced that if Lister isn't conscious or alive, he'll be shut off, unneeded; that Lister worries at all about Rimmer because there are so few people around him that he has to get what he can from each and every one; etc.

However, I don't believe that and neither do you, I'm sure. :-P

Unfortunately, I know what it's like to be in such a deep depression that nothing matters but the pit you yourself are in - you don't worry about how friends and family feel very much, you don't pay much attention to their well-being or concern, and you can be slow to care about *anything*. Lister exhibits all of these qualities in BTE - not that I can blame him, he's in a depressive situation, IMO. Possibly Rimmer deliberately pisses him off in the diving bell and after he knows he's safe again, because he's trying to get any strong reaction - even anger.

And yeah, it is kind of sad that he doesn't defend himself better to Kremlin Kate. (HAHA I love that nickname, almost as much as I love Kryten's line and delivery after the bus hits her - "She didn't see that coming? I did.") But if he feels guilty that he hasn't done his job well, he might not be able to marshal a defense. Nevermind that it's not his fault Lister is depressed - Rimmer is a master of blaming, himself as well as others, even when there's no place to put blame.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

One of the big question marks raised by BTE is exactly what Lister's relationship with Kochanski was before she walked. In the dvd commentary Doug talks about how most of what BTE is about is Lister's own lack of self-esteem and how he never felt he was good enough for Kochanski. The inferrence throughout the show is that the relationship could have happened, but Lister was too scared of rejection to ever make it happen. However, clearly there was some kind of relationship, or why would Kryten say 'she dumped you?'. My reading of it is that there was a sexual relationship (they would have had to have been made of stone not to need something from each other in all that time) but that Lister was too nervous to try and make it something more by telling her how he felt and she got sick of waiting for him to say it. The depression clearly doesn't just stem from Kochanski's death as he was already messed up when she decided to leave.
I like to think that he never sorted things out with Kochanski because he never wanted to completely close the door on the possibility of something with Rimmer. He didn't have the guts to choose between them, so Kriss made the decision for him. But, as has always been the case throughout the shows history, they've still never been able to admit how they feel, leaving them both angry, frustrated and depressed.
One of the best cut-scenes from BTE is of Lister and Rimmer talking about jammy dodgers. It starts with Lister reminiscing about a sexual encounter with Kochanski and how he now accosiates jammy dodgers with sex. He tells Rimmer he found the last jammy dodger onboard and although it was a bit old and manky he was still thrilled when he found it. Rimmer askes in disgust if he eat it and Lister says earnestly, 'No, I gave it to you. I know how much you like them.' QED, methinks. And the look on Rimmer's face, torn between disgust and tenderness says it all.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

why would Kryten say 'she dumped you?'

I wondered if that was just him using a colloquialism to drive home the fact he doesn't believe Lister would ever have a chance with her. Plus, she actually did dump him once, they do have a "past" as it were, so maybe he felt her leaving at all was dumping? I dunno. *G*

He didn't have the guts to choose between them, so Kriss made the decision for him.

Something metalkatt and I discussed was: Is there any reason to believe Kryten doesn't know even more that he's not letting on? If Kochanski told him she was leaving, and it's clear he knows it has to do with Lister, he probably knows more details that he's not telling - such as, why specifically she didn't feel he would ever get around to trying to commit to her. (And what would make him come clean and give Lister these extra details? I'd bet $20 even in canon that it has to do with Rimmer.)

and how he now accosiates jammy dodgers with sex ... Rimmer askes in disgust if he eat it and Lister says earnestly, 'No, I gave it to you. I know how much you like them.' QED, methinks.

Oh, that is just too precious for words. (Yeah, I'm a girl.) I wish I could see that bit, it sounds like great insight. (Question: What is a jammy dodger, anyway? I'm not British. I know cellophane-wrapped Twinkies would probably survive for three million years, though, LOL.)

One thing I've wondered is, do you know which creator apparently set this whole Lister/Rimmer idea in motion? Was it both Naylor and Grant, or just Naylor (seeing as he's the one left and there's still no real shortage of a slashy vibe)? Or did it totally come from the actors' interaction onscreen and was dovetailed back into canon by perceptive writers?

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

As the undercurrent has been in place from the very start, I would guess that it was down to both writers, however I think it's easy to over-interpret a lot of what they were trying to do. The majority of overt slashiness in the show is there to be played for laughs and nothing more- it's not meant to be taken all that seriously. What's nice about Dwarf is that you can watch it and take it at face value, but it has enough background and character depth to allow fans like us to explore further possibilities and meanings to our heart's content.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think it's easy to over-interpret a lot of what they were trying to do.

Oh, that's the whole purpose of fandom. Adds that extra layer of fun. Look at the decades of good time fanboys have had with all the stuff Lucas never intended in "Star Wars" too. *G* And, RD is a comedy. First and foremost, that's what I always liked about it.

BUT - writers and creators can still make a conscious decision to push one thing over another. That's just what I meant. (Plus, I was always struck by just how ... non-sexual-tension the whole dynamic between Lister and Kochanski was in the last two seasons. You'd think UST would be bursting out all over the place, but at least I didn't feel it, for comedy or otherwise. *shrug*) Though, I DID like their dynamic - Chloe actually fit in with the gang surprisingly well, I thought, for being a late addition.