first season notables

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

metalkatt and I rewatched the first season last night. There were a few little things we noticed that could be considered quite slashy from a L/R perspective (of course, they could also just be cute little friendship things, but hey, we're here for the slash *G*).

*When Rimmer moves in with his doppelganger in Me2, Lister does all these little things to prod and undermine it - making fun of him, hanging out in the Rimmers' quarters longer than necessary, dragging out the conversation beyond comfortable limits, going in and poking through his things. (And on that note, do you mean they lived together for almost two years, and he never looked for/found/read Rimmer's diary?)

*The fact that Lister never does bring up gazpacho soup again. (As in, he cares enough to keep his mouth shut. Of course, on that note, the Cat doesn't mention it again either - but he could've just forgotten, you know how cats are.)

*In Me2, Lister's nagging Rimmer "where's your wife?" at least twice. Mirrored nicely by Rimmer when Ace drops by in Season 4, with constant references to the china patterns, ring, and "Spot the Submarine."

*In Confidence & Paranoia, it's interesting how Confidence is kind of like Ace ("Davy-boy" and building him up shamelessly) and Paranoia is rather like Rimmer (same criticisms, same slight build and pasty-faced manner).

*Rimmer's harassing the Cat to help move Lister to the medi-bay in Confidence & Paranoia, his obvious worry in trying to get Cat to leave his lunch and come along. (The man doesn't even get dressed before rushing out of quarters.)

*In that same episode, Rimmer constantly trying to persuade Lister not to listen to Confidence when it was putting him in danger, and trying to drug Paranoia into unconsciousness even as Paranoia was saying things Rimmer seemed to agree with insulting Lister.

*In Me2, Lister chooses the original Rimmer hologram, recognizing character growth over his "younger" activation.

*Of all the good memories Lister can have about his time in the Copacabana in Balance of Power, it's odd he doesn't pick the one where he met Kochanski (of course, at that time Grant Naylor were still thinking they'd never dated, but you know, STILL) or where he's *just* with his mates having a good time, but that he has to stick one in there with Rimmer. I'm sure there were plenty of nights he spent there with his buddies with Rimmer nowhere around to interfere with their fun. *G*

*As annoyed as Rimmer is with Lister's plan for officerhood in Balance of Power, he doesn't try to futz with the computer or test itself, or Lister's study time, aside from some whining and masquerading as Kochanski (which - if his plan hadn't worked and Lister hadn't figured out it was Rimmer, what exactly did he expect? To go on that 4-hour date with Lister himself, in her body?).

*Rimmer hurling himself at - through - the Cat in The End, in an attempt to protect Lister.

*In Me2, of ALL the multitudes of quarters Rimmer could've escaped to after the big fight with his doppelganger, he chooses to go back into Lister's, where he knows the guy has heard them arguing and he'll have to admit things aren't going well. I'd say he finds comfort in Lister's presence.

Any more you guys can think of? As I said, some of it is reeeeeeaching, but that's OK, I suppose. It's our entertainment. :-)

Comments

[erinptah]

In Confidence & Paranoia, it's interesting how Confidence is kind of like Ace ("Davy-boy" and building him up shamelessly) and Paranoia is rather like Rimmer (same criticisms, same slight build and pasty-faced manner).

Those actors had previously auditioned for the roles of Lister and Rimmer, respectively =)

Sweet list!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Did they? Now I wonder if Ferguson would have done so well and found the measure of fame he has if he'd been in Red Dwarf. The only series he did that I know of was the Drew Carey Show, and let's face it, that show did not place the demands on his time/life like Red Dwarf has its actors, for reunions, conventions, etc.

Sometime I want to see a list of who all auditioned for those roles who might be famous elsewhere now. Maybe in the afterlife one day when I'm bored. *G*

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

I still love how by the time we get to "Confidence and Paranoia", Rimmer has turned into such a mother hen when it comes to Lister.

[larkworth.livejournal.com]

Haha... I was just about to say that "Confidence and Paranoia" kind of foreshadows Rimmer's borderline creepy possessive tendencies, but mother hen works too. :P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I guess the difference between a mother hen and a stalker is how well you like putting up with the fusser, eh? :-)

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

Truly. I can see why the script for "Bodysnatcher" was scuttled. In this episode, Rimmer seems pretty determined to keep Lister alive.

We even see shadows of it in "Future Echoes" where he's pissed off that Lister is going to go into stasis and leave him alone -- that's the first thought in his mind, not that Lister's going to switch him off.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Bodysnatcher? I don't think I'm familiar with that one - that isn't the same as Bodyswap, is it?

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

Bodysnatcher was an episode Rob and Doug wrote for series 1. I believe the premise was Rimmer was building himself a new body out of ..er, spare parts. Including some of Lister's (starting with dandruff and fingernail clippings, eventually graduating to limbs). The premise of the episode was junked but some of the jokes from that original script survived and were re-distributed among other episodes.

Again, it seems odd in part because Rimmer seems intent on keeping Lister around as early as episode 2.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

/horrified

They must've gotten rid of that so that Rimmer wouldn't come off as a complete sociopath, eh? YEESH.

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

*nods* I think it also had to do with the writing process, when the characterization evolved and they moved away from some of the broader gags they had originally conceived for the show.

[larkworth.livejournal.com]

Hahah... and that it's not stalking if they just happen to be your bunkmate. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Mother hen ... stalker ... it's a fine line, isn't it? *G*

[debris_k.livejournal.com]

We're talking about a show in which two male character, who have the run of a ship the size smeggin' Europe not only continue to share a small room when there's only four beings (and one of them's a computer) on board but never once seriously try and move out. I don't think they did in the books, either, though it's been a while so my memory could be wonky. In any case, my point is this: if continuous living together is not gay!UST, I don't know what is. *loves on the easy-on-the-slash-lovers show*

[beetle-breath.livejournal.com]

That always stood out to me, as well. And you know they can't use the excuse of the rest of the ship being uninhabitable since we know Lister doesn't care about that.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If anything, Lister's habits make any room HE is living in uninhabitable!

Drive-by agreement

[rubberbutton.livejournal.com]

We're talking about a show in which two male character, who have the run of a ship the size smeggin' Europe not only continue to share a small room

I know, right?! The first thing I would do would be to schlep my stuff over to the captain's quarters. I can't imagine that option didn't occur to Rimmer, who for some reason decided he'd rather, erm, bunk with Lister.

Re: Drive-by agreement

[debris_k.livejournal.com]

The first thing I would do would be to schlep my stuff over to the captain's quarters.

After I commented I was thinking about this point, and I definitely want to think I'd be doing a Goldilocks and moving from quarters to quarters, claiming that the next one is better than the last 'cause the last one had some minor but horribly annoying fault. *g*

Re: Drive-by agreement

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You got it. I'm not married, but if I ever GET married, I will seriously consider separate bedrooms for when I want to be left alone and just sleep in peace, I think ... and that's with someone I would be claiming to actually like.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I sort of think Rimmer stuck close because he took his job of keeping Lister from going spare seriously. But I also like to think that over time, they eventually, grudgingly, came to care for each other.

[beetle-breath.livejournal.com]

In Future Echoes, when Lister is yelling for Rimmer about seeing his reflection in the mirror, Rimmer makes the comment about "Just scream out my name and I'll coming pelting down the corridor!"

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I know! That was a great bit. (Also, Rimmer waiting for Lister to turn his back so he can make that face at him.)

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

Hee - this is excellent. I can't believe I watched the show for so many years and never saw it *eyeroll*

[PS I caved. I'm watching The Brittas Empire. Oh, dear...]

[queen-fiend.livejournal.com]

Yay Brittas! I need to watch that show again.

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

The accent is excruciating (well, to me *g*) but the body language is... disturbingly familiar ;)

[queen-fiend.livejournal.com]

His voice is rather irritating. XD I can't stop watching though, even when I have to watch the train wreck through my fingers.

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I'm really enjoying it, almost against my will, lol.

To VR: I forgot where you said that Brittas gets more sympathetic in S2/3 but I'm almost at the end of S2 and he really is adorable. Kind of XD

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I've made it through the first 3 seasons of Brittas on YouTube. I really need to sit down and plow through the last four. (I like the show and the characters, it's just kind of painful to watch, LOL. I guess that's the mark of good acting.)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, the Me2 thing is hilarious. Apart from the classic 'couple splits and divides the possessions' trope, I think Lister even refers to now having a 'bachelor' place, and being a 'free man' and how he can do all the things that drove Rimmer crazy, as if he couldn't have just had his own room the whole time.
And of course, Rimmer moves all the way...next door.
(And the deleted scenes have Lister trying to persuade the cat to move in as his Rimmer replacement after about 30 seconds alone: 'It'll be fun! We can share stuff!')

Lister's nagging Rimmer "where's your wife?" at least twice.

Yeah, I like how he's also indirectly comparing the other Rimmer to himself unfavourably, with all the questions about what they talk about and how it can't be (as) interesting since they know the same things.
And then immediately proving that he knows just as much as R2 when R1 mentions how they discuss old girlfriends.

(Also, notice how the copy needles Lister with the smoking thing, whereas the original politely acknowledges Lister and the Cat before trying to wind up himself.
I also like how Rimmer's proven wrong by himself - he *is* difficult to live with, so much so he annoys even himself; but it's also shown how Lister *is* irritating - even the Cat is annoyed when they're palling up in the cinema.)

This is probably also the first episode where Lister uses manipulation to get what he wants - he was always adept at knowing which buttons to push with Rimmer, but he does some subtle work even prior to the last scene's more obvious 'Have a drink, what are your medals for?' - carrying the picture, complimenting the paint.

the Cat doesn't mention it again either - but he could've just forgotten, you know how cats are

It's beneath the Cat to argue about personal things like personality failings and embarrassing occurences when there are more important issues - like clothes and appearances!

Anyway, I also like:

Future Echoes
* 'It makes me feel like a man.' 'You'll probably get one looking like that!'
* Rimmer's comparing himself to Lister's sex aid (!)
* Lister and the Cat looking at Rimmer's crotch wondering where Lister's going to get babies from.

Balance of Power
* The co-dependent dysfunction: 'Why didn't he wake me? He knows I'm a heavy sleeper. Have I got to remind him to do everything for me? He's so irresponsible.'
* Someone pointed out once it's interesting that Lister chooses to become an officer via the Chef's exam, considering his rival for Kochanski was a chef.
It's doubly interesting that the role Rimmer later takes on in the crew is Navigation Officer, Kochanski's old job.
* Rimmer hitting on Lister in Kochanski's body.

Of all the good memories Lister can have

What I find interesting is that while there's a bitterness to Rimmer and Lister's arguments, Lister basically interacts with his friends in a similiar way that he does with Rimmer - they pull pranks on each other and take the piss. What his mates say is equally as negatively affecting as some of Rimmer's putdowns (he doesn't ask out Kochanski, after all.) And they can also be equally as selfish (there's that deleted scene in S8 where Chen and Selby debate helping Lister before deciding to go the pub, instead) - it really shows how shallow the relationship ties Lister has prior to the accident. (IIRC, there's also a line in the novel about how Lister had nothing in common with them except drinking.)

confidence and paranoia

* Nice bit of foreshadowing for 'Blue': "I mean, it must mean something. You don't dream about someone that you don't feel something for."
* 'How about an anal reading?' ROFL.
* Interesting that Lister's paranoia immediately casts doubt on his feelings for Kochanski and points out that he 'barely knew' her. As well as suggesting he listen to Rimmer who's more 'experienced, level-headed...better than you'. (I'd have thought his paranoia would have seen it more like, how bad are you that this loser outranks you.)

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

* Rimmer's comparing himself to Lister's sex aid (!)

"Switch me on, switch me off, like I'm some battery powered sex aid."
8D

* Lister and the Cat looking at Rimmer's crotch wondering where Lister's going to get babies from.

Oh you should listen to the commentary- Danny points this out and lawls: "That's RISKAY stuff right there!"

* Rimmer hitting on Lister in Kochanski's body.

I have to admit, I wonder what would have happened if he could have pulled off the impersonation until Lister was drunk enough to maybe not care... 8D

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The sex-aid line had me rolling - I'd forgotten about it from other viewings for some weird reason. (Also, I started out again this time watching the remastered episodes on Netflix, and there's quite a lot left out of those, as compared to the original series airings.)

And yeah, Danny's comment about the risqueness had us laughing. I just wish there was some way Lister could've gotten knocked up by Arlene instead of Deb, actually - that would've given Rimmer a complex to last a few years.

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Nah, he'd be busy berating 'himself' for apparently giving up his standards for a bit of "totty". 8DD

(My head is a giant RD quote factory. I appreciate people who like the sheer unintentional but totally unregrettable memorized expandable index I carry in my head.

Seriously, give me a quote, any line, and I can (within reasonable error) give you who said it, to whom, what the next line was, what episode, series, and (just as important!) whether or not it can be slashy. 8D

[larkworth.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, I wonder what would have happened if he could have pulled off the impersonation until Lister was drunk enough to maybe not care... 8D

This has also crossed my mind quite a few times. I imagine it would have ended in some kind of frenzied, flustered emotional meltdown. XD

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

True, because either way, he's still soft-light v_v; darn!

Still, would have been hilariously cute.

[larkworth.livejournal.com]

Darn indeed!

Awww... it would be. The question is, how far would things go before the meltdown happened? :P Heh... no, he doesn't really come across as the touchy-feely sort, does he? </small

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Indeed *pout*

Far enough that Lister would have something to forever bug Rimmer about? (It'd be the ultimate distraction! Anytime Rimsy is getting ultra annoying, Lister'd just start hitting on him! INSTANT FLUSTERMENT AND FLAIL! 8D)

[larkworth.livejournal.com]

Hahaha... That is quite possibly the best mental image ever. :D

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Until, of course, Rimmer figures this out and acts to take him up on his offer ....

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

xDD (It might take to the point of Blue before he'd figure that out- he's rather thick about that.

Besides, you know he'd dodge with more snide remarks about listers sexual orientation and his friendliness with Ace etcetcetc)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Which - you wonder if those old taunts ever occur to Rimmer again once he becomes Ace. ;-)

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Maybe he'd be up for a little game of Spot the Submarine?

8D

Or wearing taffeta ballgowns, drinking mint juleps and whipping the houseboy? xD

'sides, our Arn would never call Lister "skipper", so it wouldn't be a tv show about a boy and his bush kangaroo ;D

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Or wearing taffeta ballgowns, drinking mint juleps and whipping the houseboy?

You have no idea how I would PAY to see either Rimmer or Ace do that.

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

And how well Chris rolls off that line almost makes it seem adlibbed.

I think any fangirl worth her salt would pay a-relatively-unimportant-or-maybe-very-very-important-body-part to see that.

So long as the 'houseboy' is Lister 8D

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I have always wondered how many of their lines are adlibbed and how many were written that way. I find I tend to like actors who can adlib; it just happens that way - Johnny Depp did it quite a bit in "Pirates" and for the first few episodes of the first season of "The A-Team," they didn't have the character of Murdock written in any longer, so Dwight Schultz had to make up pretty much all of his own dialogue when filming those.

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

True, true. And it does seem loads more natural (heck Jim Carey they practically just give a plot and let him go).

Though I'd wonder (hopefully and speculatively) at where Chris pulled that from if it was adlibbed

8D 8D8D goawayinnerfangirl

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Wow! When you comment, you REALLY comment. And your memory is so much better than mine - I had just watched these the night before I posted, and I see some of your examples and smack my forehead like Homer Simpson - D'oh! I remember that!

The dream thing on C&P - YES. I pointed that out to Nat as he said it. "AHA!" But again, that dream pretty much speaks for itself, as far as I'm concerned anyway. :-)

The thing that strikes me - off of what you point out - is that Lister's friendship with his drinking buddies comes off as being really rather superficial in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure they drink, and discuss women and their work and people who piss them off. But you look at Lister and Rimmer and the stuff they fight and slog through together - THAT'S where the heavy lifting is. Even before Rimmer dies, the fact that they live together and apparently figure out how to put up with each other, being so very different in habit, is telling. No, it may not be a willing friendship - but who among us doesn't have or hasn't had a friend who didn't start out as either an enemy or someone we didn't agree with a lot? (No? Is it just me? LOL)

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

You know, I was just rereading this (clearing out an lj inbox when all the IMPORTANT stuff gets sent to my email anyway and link-clicked there is very boringly time-consuming) and realized something.

Lister might have read the beginning of Rimmer's diary in Me2, but it takes until Stasis Leak to see him reading it all the way through.

"I don't believe this! You've been reading it out to the Cat?!"
"Only the best bits!"
"Carol McCauley, your eyes are like two limpid pools of loveliness"
"Shut up"
"Your hair is like a golden waterfall"
"Shuddap"
"Plus those short skirts you wear make me really horny"
"Lister I order you to shut your face!"
"It's no big deal you know you can read my diary"
"Who'd want to read your diary? It's full of puerile nonsense about Kristine Kochanski."
"Ah, so you've read my diary."
(therefore, at that point, they've both read each other's diaries?)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Hey, it gets boring out in space. Besides, you run out of things to lob at your friends in an argument in a while; where better for fresh material? :-D

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, Lister doesn't bring up the soup again, and can't bug him 'bout anything big (like the family or his career or whatever) without the problem of Rimmer probably going off for a week-long sulk.
(Or a week-long trip with the skutters down along the diesel decks? With possibly dodgy photo collection and mind-numbing slide presentation to follow?)

Whole big ship to run 'round in, and they keep themselves in the same few rooms.
The Cat had a better idea- running amok across the ship, investigating with his investigating feet. 8D

[shmophieee.livejournal.com]

Not slashy, but thought id point out, in Me2, after RimmerTwo walks out of the sleeping quarters right at the start, Rimmer says to Lister about RimmerTwo "What a guy!" I had never noticed this until a few days ago!