Terms of endearment

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

In the first RD book, it's noted at one point that Lister has myriad pet names for Kochanski - "babe" "ange" "Krissie" "K.K." and many others. This isn't too uncommon between men and women, obviously.

For me, one of the most difficult things about writing m/m slash is figuring out what the characters might call each other. This is especially difficult in this fandom, at least for me. I really have a hard time envisioning many "sweethearts" "babys" "darlings" or "cuddlebugs" flying among the Dwarfers.

So far all I've really been able to come up with is the very occasional "babe" or "darlin'" out of Lister that I can justify to myself. I tend to have them stick with what they already use, but in an affectionate fashion - "smeghead" and "Listy" and "goit." Have any of you had a problem with terms of endearment for one character toward another, when writing (or reading)? Do you have your own mental list of acceptable, in-character pet names?

(I'm not limiting this to just Lister and Rimmer, since there are several male characters in the series, but that's clearly the two I'M thinking of at least. I suppose this could apply for f/f slash, too, but for some reason I don't have nearly as hard a time seeing, say, Kochanski and Nirvanah calling each other "honey" or whatever. Maybe it's a sexist double standard; I don't know.)

Comments

[smaych.livejournal.com]

I think it could be less to do with their gender and more to do with the characters themselves. For instance, I have no problem seeing Ace calling men and women any number of bizarre terms of endearment. But Rimmer, not so much. I can't see him ever calling anyone, man or woman, something like "babe".

I really like with Lister and Rimmer when they call each other by their first names. For them (well, certainly for Rimmer) that seems like a far more intimate and vulnerable thing to say than any generic term of endearment. Although for sure I can also imagine Lister calling Rimmer "darlin'" or somesuch in the right situation.

I also like how their most commonly used insults against each other can become affectionate when written right, in the right situation.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Good point about the first names; I totally agree.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Definitely there are male characters capable of using all manner of endearments on another man; I can see Kurt from "Glee" doing it easily enough, to name one. Lister, a little less so, but perhaps still a few names. But you're right about Rimmer's willingness to do it, I think.

As for the insults - it's how they met and how they've related to each other all these years. That's not going to go away overnight (or likely, at all).

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

The way I see it is this; the characters are still the characters, even though they're in love. Lister gives everyone pet names, affectionate or not. I just try to put myself in his place, and imagine what he'd say. And that goes for any character I can even mildly identify with. If it's someone I can't identify with... I find it harder. But I generally avoid writing those characters. I think you generally get it spot on, IMO. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oddly, this sort of thing hasn't been a problem with other pairings I've written over the years, either in or out of fandom; it's just a thing with these two, and to an extent I think it's because of Rimmer. He causes problems everywhere. *G*

[hazeltea.livejournal.com]

I think their relationship has evolved to the point of where "smeghead" IS a pet name for Rimmer, not quite the insult it used to be. It's different with each couple, I think. Lister went into the Kochanski thing liking her, after all.

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

I think their relationship has evolved to the point of where "smeghead" IS a pet name for Rimmer, not quite the insult it used to be.

I agree with this, definitely.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I'd say you're likely right. I sort of enjoy the difference between how Lister uses the word early on - such as when telling Kryten what he can call Rimmer - and later in the series.

[nadilee.livejournal.com]

uh, I've been overthinking this for ages, and a sarcastic 'sugarbean' is kind of the closest thing to a pet name any of them would get, imo xD

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I haven't heard that one before. Cute!

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Though it may not be Liverpudian, I like "luv" like 'guv but as said by a diner waitress, perhaps...(though I guess that's more a personal-me saying-thingy, I can't see them doing so.)

Personally for most of the slash couples I've read, one form or another, it hasn't been an issue. Either one of them is charming or comedic, and can deadpanningly deliver a 'angel' or 'babe' or even 'baldy'. Goof? Dummy? *gets lost on another self-tangent*, or it's an affectionate insult fest, or they're simply affectionate enough with their other's shortened names.

I find the little random nicknames that may not even have anything to do with cuteness to be endearing, personally. I have a friend I refer to as "space cadet" for instance. even though she's leagues smarter than I am, and technically she came up with it herself. But it's the meaning that's the point

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I definitely see these two eschewing normal pet names in favor of normal words - or even insults - said in the right tone of voice. You know how you can call your dog or cat anything you want, so long as you say it in this cooing, "come here, boy!" tone of voice? Like that.

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

Ha, I don't even have to say it in the "come here boy" sorta voice. I swear, one of these days I'll have a pet called smeghead, or better yet, Git. 8D

Of course, I have a friend, who when she was little, and lived on the family farm, called all the cows either, 'burgers', 'ladies' or 'yumyums' (calves). And they'd come running too xD

[diminua.livejournal.com]

I struggle to see Rimmer and Lister using pet names but I think it's more to do with the character of Rimmer than anything else. I think Lister would try it but then Rimmer would say something like 'Lister I love you dearly and can't imagine life without you but if you call me that again I may have to take you to the nearest airlock and flush you out into space anyway.'
If Lister and Cat were in a relationship I can easily see them calling each other 'babe'. Possibly even 'dormouse-cheeks' and 'kitten'. Yuck.

[nadilee.livejournal.com]

aww kitten xD

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I like your Rimmer's reaction. (Of course, I suspect Lister would ignore him and do as he pleases - perhaps even using the offending word a little often for a while just to needle Rimmer - and then drop it when Rimmer lets it go.)

"Kitten?" Oh dear. I hadn't thought of that ...

[tawg.livejournal.com]

I have SUCH issues with pet names, because I have read "Babe" a few hundred times too many in fics.

I actually think that it comes to class/background. Lister is working class (or perhaps below that, since he's wasn't great at the actual working side of things before the accident), and he throws around 'babe' and 'angel' and 'ange' - a lot of his nicknames are derived from general familiar terms of endearment, or derived from the name of his partner.

Then there's Rimmer, who I think might develop a more partner-specific petname opposed to settling for the old standards, should he ever get to the petname stage of a relationship. I think that Rimmer would resent being called "babe" because so many people have been called that (by Lister) before him. While Lister throws around terms of endearment to his loved ones like confetti, I think that Rimmer would see the re-use of a petname as indicating that he is being compared to/replacing/one in a long line of lovers. And I think it's pretty firm canon that Rimmer wants someone to see him as special and unique (and brave and sexy and strong and...)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

There are several good points here, a few I hadn't even thought of, such as their different social classes. I can see Rimmer wanting to be "different" - perhaps especially because of the nature of this relationship. I sort of see him thinking "If I'm going to override my innate homophobia to have it off with a man, I want it to be worth something to him." ??

[tawg.livejournal.com]

I think Rimmer just wants to be worth something to anyone. I think that being in a relationship with Lister would be hard for Rimmer because, in a nutshell, Lister calls him on his bullshit - he won't let Rimmer hide behind his upbringing, or the advantages that other people had, or anything of the like. Excuses are Rimmer's natural defense, and Lister strips him of them. So while I think that Rimmer could tolerate a run-of-the-mill petname were he in a relationship (I think he'd tolerate almost anything to be in a relationship, honestly) so long as he could maintain the illusion that he was a strong and brave and worthwhile person, in a relationship where he was forced to recognise who he is and all of his weaknesses, I do think that he would need a symbol to justify his worth in the eyes of his partner. If he can't be special in his own eyes, he would need to be special in someone else's.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You made me think and write fic .....

[tawg.livejournal.com]

Woo! Double win!

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I think Lister strips him of a lot of things...:-)

[sunny-bexster.livejournal.com]

I've always felt uncomfortable putting pet-names into RD fics. I have a hard time believing that either Rimmer or Lister would call each other 'hun' or 'darling'. Rimmer especially. Lister might throw the occasional 'man' or 'mate' in as an affectionate reference, or even 'love' or 'sweet-cheeks' if he was being sarcastic and toying with Rimmer.

There's not many Scouse terms of affection I can see him using on Rimmer. Point of interest - the term 'cock' is actually an affectionate term in Liverpool, and elsewhere in the North of England but it needs a good context. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Hmm, location-specific nicknames; interesting! I hadn't thought of those (mostly because I'm no Anglophile and wouldn't know them). It's good to see that brought up as something to consider ...

[dauphkantus.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* I've been vaguely aware of that, because of my Sherlock-fic readings. "Old cock" is one of the odd endearments, that I can't help but smile at. 8D

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I remember watching Stoke Me A Clipper and seeing the scene where they're talking on the gantry. Rimmer says "I don't think I can go through with it, Listy" and I remember thinking it was the first time you hear him use the term with real affection and not being patronising. For them Listy and Rimsy ARE their pet names.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think Lister's only used "Rimsey" once or twice, hasn't he? Whereas, Rimmer uses "Listy" all the time. But you're right, I do consider it a unique pet name that Rimmer came up with that Lister would never be able to hear elsewhere without assigning it to Rimmer exclusively. *G*