Something I've been thinking about concerning "Entangled"

[zara2148.livejournal.com]

Alright, I'm a fairly new to the Red Dwarf fandom, but don't hold that against me. Anyway, my mind has been pondering on and off concerning Kryten's quick infodump in "Entangled" to Rimmer, and I'd thought it could make a good discussion (roughly paraphrased from memory):

"Have you forgotten? If Mister Lister dies, then the computer automatically shuts you down."

Now here's what I'm wondering (and let's pretend for a moment Naylor is not most likely making this up as he goes) - did Rimmer really already know about this, or was it something he was 'conveniently' never told. And if he was told about it at some point, how does this revelation change the previous nine and half series worth of Rimmer/Lister interaction?

Personally, I can see it as perfectly reasonable for Holly to not mention this little detail to Rimmer (assuming the automatic shut-down isn't brought on by a lack of Holly, who might have been able to stop it if s/he wanted to). Not to overly project, but if I was told my life was dependent on someone who shows all the self-preservational skills of a lemming practicing amateur cliff-jumping, I'd be tempted to lock that person in a room indefinitely. So Rimmer's ignorance could have been necessary for the as-normal-as-possible interaction needed to keep Lister sane.

I also have difficulty reading too many mercenary intentions into his previous shows of concerns - Rimmer may be a goit, but he's fairly open about being one. He rarely bothers masking any less-than-savory intentions - actually, if he knew his life was tied to Lister's, I can't see him not complaining about it at some point (aka "You're endangering your life deliberately, aren't you? You want to see me dead that badly?").

Comments

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I'm torn on whether Rimmer knew or not. If he didn't, I suspect Holly kept it from him, for reasons you state. If he did know, he's done an amazing job of hiding that fact from Lister and pretending everything was tickety-boo.

And if he was told about it at some point, how does this revelation change the previous nine and half series worth of Rimmer/Lister interaction?

If Rimmer knew and never said anything, to me it shows that he had a much deeper connection to Lister than we'd previously been led to believe (canon-wise), and wasn't the goited bastard we know and love. That makes his putdowns and arguments and all-around smegginess a deflection from the truth. If he'd truly wanted Lister to know, there's no way he wouldn't have thrown it in Lister's face during one of their hundreds of arguments over the years. The fact that he didn't, shows that he understands how it would affect Lister, and made the choice to keep it secret. What would Lister do, if he knew his life was the catalyst for another? With Lister being so set on family and kids (as has continued through X), you know he wants that close connection. Maybe Rimmer knows that, and keeps their entanglement from Lister for just that reason? Keep Lister at arm's length at all costs, even if it means Rimmer's own life. And if all of that is the case, then Rimmer is the bigger man, unselfish and brave.

What annoyed me more about the whole mess was that Kryten knew it, but didn't say anything until that moment. I know he's not fond of Rimmer (understatement, I know). Maybe it's part of Kryten's programming to not let holograms know of their death circumstances? Or is Rimmer special because he was only brought back for Lister? It really bugs me we don't have Holly but do have this 'on board JMC computer' that still dictates their lives, even when the rest of the human race is long gone. I know it was needed for the plot devices, but in reality, I guess some computer is needed to run the ship.

You're endangering your life deliberately, aren't you? You want to see me dead that badly?

It is so scary that I heard that in his voice, with inflections and a nose wrinkle of annoyance.

Now I want to see Lister wake up one morning, completely encased in bubble wrap or a bubble, and Rimmer declaring that he will live to be 4000 years old or he'll know what-for :)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I read a good theory on G&T regarding the "onboard JMC computer" which has become my personal fanon and is also the only reasonable explanation IMO. :p

The reason we never heard about it before is because it's the default backup which kicks in if Holly is disabled. It's a strictly by the book machine which doesn't let them get away with anywhere near as much as Holly did, hence its threatening Rimmer with demotion in "Dear Dave".

I think I'm going to add to that theory that it's also the computer that's tied Rimmer's continued existence to Lister's, presumably following the JMC regs. I can't really see Holly doing that without at least telling Rimmer, and I don't think Rimmer knew throughout the series.

For instance, there's a scene in "Demons And Angels" where the crew are forced to abandon ship and are stranded in Starbug without enough oxygen. Rimmer points out to Kryten that they don't need it and suggests ejecting Cat and Lister's corpses into space if the weight reduction would help them reach the nearest star. He'd hardly do that if he knew his own existence was dependent upon Lister's.

He may have known since around "BTE", which is presumably when this computer took over. He didn't exclaim in surprise when Kryten pointed it out. In fact, neither did Cat.

You're endangering your life deliberately, aren't you? You want to see me dead that badly?

And then Lister retorts: "I wouldn't be around to see you dead, ya goit!" *Lol* I heard that in his voice too. :)

[zara2148.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm beginning to think the "The rules were different under Holly" theory is the explanation that makes the most sense, even if it might not be the most narratively satisfying. Would "Timeslides" even be possible if Rimmer was programmed to shut down when Lister died/ceased to exist as we knew him, even if there was no reason for Rimmer to exist to begin with... and oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed.

That theory about the by-the-book JMC computer only makes Queeg even more funny in hindsight. I suppose it makes sense Holly got the idea for Queeg from somewhere.

Now, because I have a need to play devil's advocate and spark discussion, let me just give the bit of reasoning I came up with as to WHY Holly might have tied Rimmer's life to Lister:

I can see the automatic shutdown as being, in the beginning of the series at least, an act of kindness, if an unwanted one – Holly had no way of knowing how close the Cat would grow to them or that Kryten would come along. Really, the status quo as Holly intended was to be only Rimmer and Lister – so when Rimmer’s only company eventually died, it could be argued that the kindest thing would be to switch him off before he goes mad from loneliness. Certainly Rimmer never relishes the prospect of being alone, as “Future Echoes” and “Rimmerworld” showed.

My heart's not really in that theory anymore, though, so feel free to poke it full of holes!

I think BTE sounds like a reasonable time frame. Now I'm wondering as to what the boys' reaction was to that the first time they found out...

Cat to Lister: "Quick man, hold your breath! You can breathe again once goal post head is gone!"

(Mmm, my Cat voice might need work).

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I still don't think Rimmer knew in the early days, but you make a good case for why Holly might have done that. It makes no sense in the light of eps like "Stoke", but that's down to Rob and Doug's famously lackadaisical attitude to continuity. ;)

I agree that you should write a fic if it inspires you. It's certainly fertile ground for character development. :)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

default backup which kicks in if Holly is disabled

I remember that hand-wave explanation, and if we have to try to fit all of GNP's writings into one cohesive universe, it's a good explanation.

He may have known since around "BTE", which is presumably when this computer took over. He didn't exclaim in surprise when Kryten pointed it out. In fact, neither did Cat.

I figured Cat knew because of the coincidence stuff, and he and Kryten were on the same wavelength. Maybe it was just too much for Rimmer to assimilate in such a short period of time, finding out he'd been bet and lost in a poker game, and not five minutes later, that his existence was tied to said kebab-eating, GELF-hooching drinking poker loser. My head would have been reeling. Or, maybe Rimmer was trying to wrap his head around the idea that he was entangled with Lister, and the idea that if Lister died, he died too, had some odd sort of appeal. He wouldn't be the one left standing, so to speak. I can see him, most of his life, being left at the side of the dance floor in school, the last one picked for any sport, the one seated on the steps alone during recess. To not have that isolation to look forward to, maybe the entanglement isn't such a bad deal to Rimmer's way of thinking.

Even with Holly gone, I can't see the JMC computer deciding to do an inventory and marking down "delete Rimmer when primary objective terminates" and passing it around. I don't think Rimmer knew. I'm not sure how Kryten knew. Maybe Pree said something to Kryten after the deck repair fiasco?

[zara2148.livejournal.com]

I figured Cat knew because of the coincidence stuff, and he and Kryten were on the same wavelength.

I actually spent some time wondering if the Cat would react, and if so how. I don't recall any reaction from him to that revelation, and it's the kind of thing I could see him riffing on Rimmer about regardless of whether it's the first he's heard of it or not.

And I do agree that I don't think Rimmer was really given time to dwell on the fact that he was tied to the curry-soaked goit. I think part of the reason this detail bugs me is that the show does kind of just gloss over it, and with it so do the characters: "You're lifebonded to Mister Lister. Whelp, we better go negotiate with the GELFs."

I can see him, most of his life, being left at the side of the dance floor in school, the last one picked for any sport, the one seated on the steps alone during recess. To not have that isolation to look forward to, maybe the entanglement isn't such a bad deal to Rimmer's way of thinking.

I'll just be over here, crying over fangirl feels/personal sympathies. *huddles in corner and sobs*

The JMC computer is clearly a gossipy little snitch, isn't it?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Awww, I'm wincing in recognition at your description of Rimmer's childhood isolation. *Hugs him*

Pree telling Kryten makes a lot of sense. If it was that recent then Kryten could still have been trying to pick the right moment to tell him. From the perspective of getting him to help Lister out of trouble despite what he'd drunkenly done, it was a good moment. ;)

[zara2148.livejournal.com]

Mm, I was leaning toward the "was never told" or the "irrelevant because with Holly the rules were different" theories myself, until I started thinking more about the implications behind the "knew all along" theory. Mainly because how much awesome potential character growth there is to be had if he did.

After all they've been through, it would be rather touching if Rimmer's more or less forgotten his life is tied to this goit, because it would mean he's come to care for Lister on his own terms.

I also thought that at first, if Rimmer did know, what might still his tongue would be his still very real fear of being shut off - I can see Rimmer rationalizing any potential show of weakness as a VERY BAD THING, even if I don't think Lister has the cruelty necessary to, say, fake his own death in an attempt to trick the computer into shutting Rimmer off (or Holly to be senile enough to fall for it). Self-preservation was the only thing I could think of that would be powerful enough to override his tendency toward complaints, at least in the early days.

If Rimmer knew and never said anything, to me it shows that he had a much deeper connection to Lister than we'd previously been led to believe (canon-wise), and wasn't the goited bastard we know and love. That makes his putdowns and arguments and all-around smegginess a deflection from the truth. If he'd truly wanted Lister to know, there's no way he wouldn't have thrown it in Lister's face during one of their hundreds of arguments over the years. The fact that he didn't, shows that he understands how it would affect Lister, and made the choice to keep it secret. What would Lister do, if he knew his life was the catalyst for another? With Lister being so set on family and kids (as has continued through X), you know he wants that close connection. Maybe Rimmer knows that, and keeps their entanglement from Lister for just that reason? Keep Lister at arm's length at all costs, even if it means Rimmer's own life. And if all of that is the case, then Rimmer is the bigger man, unselfish and brave.

Gah... sorry, I was in awe. Anyway, as I was saying to go from my proposed "quietly out for himself" to that... gah, no words. (This also reminds me of my thoughts on Kochanski's theory that Rimmer was purposely being a goit to keep Lister sane but that is another topic which could warrant its own discussion post)

And good point about Lister's reaction, which is something I honestly never thought about - this is the man who wants the servant mechanoid to be independent, so I certainly can't see him being too happy about Rimmer's life being tied to his.

Touche about Kryten's jerkiness as well - but then again, he's shown himself to be as human as the boys in that regard.

I nailed Rimmer's voice? Huh, maybe I should consider writing some fanfic then... this is certainly providing plenty of interesting ideas.

Hehe, love that mental image. For some reason I then started imaging Bubble!Lister doing all he can to annoy Rimmer, such as clicking his tongue and slapping his cheeks until Rimmer snaps.

"ENOUGH ALREADY!"
"THEN LET ME OUT OF THIS SMEGGING BUBBLE!"

(apologies for ridiculously long response)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

After all they've been through, it would be rather touching if Rimmer's more or less forgotten his life is tied to this goit, because it would mean he's come to care for Lister on his own terms.

Awwwwwwwww! My little slashy heart just grew two sizes :)

And good point about Lister's reaction, which is something I honestly never thought about - this is the man who wants the servant mechanoid to be independent, so I certainly can't see him being too happy about Rimmer's life being tied to his.

This, a thousand times. Lister would pick and poke at the computer program until he smegged it up, shut Rimmer down by accident, deleted Rimmer by accident, turned Rimmer into a newt.. you get the idea. Self-preservation on Rimmer's part, again, knowing that Lister would want Rimmer to have his own life, would still Rimmer's tongue. Better to lie and stay safe, than risk Lister mucking about with the JMC computer.

Ahhh, boys. We love them so.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I feel like this is something Rimmer didn't know, and neither did Lister - or if they were aware of it, it was relatively recent news in canon. All you have to do is look back at "Stoke Me A Clipper," when Rimmer leaves to be Ace - how could he do that unless he could operate independently?

Now of course, this Rimmer could be a different hologram than Series 7 Rimmer (I choose to think it's the same, but canon may not back me up, and we just don't know for sure). So the same rules may not hold. But I don't see why Rimmer's existence would depend on Lister anyway, at least not from a power conservation POV. The ship can scoop in all the free energy it ever needs from space, and having one less person on board would, in fact, free up a little more energy to devote to other life forms, wouldn't it?

[kronette.livejournal.com]

least not from a power conservation POV

I took Rimmer's resurrection strictly as companion-to-keep-the-last-human-sane, not anything to do with power. Pree said Lister dictated her programming; when he was no longer on board/no longer a JMC employee, her next directive was to destroy the ship, herself and everyone aboard as her main directive had been fulfilled. No more last human; no more need to have a ship.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

I'm enjoying this discussion very much, but I don't think Rimmer knew, or else he would have been making comments about it everytime Lister did something brave and stupid. Because he's changed a lot, I admit it, but I still think he would freak out and say things to Lister about it if he knew.