You know what annoys me about S8?

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Well, aside from "Krytie TV". It's the fact that Hollister had Rimmer enter the psychotropic testing without his knowledge. The other four had to sign consent forms, acknowledge that they understood what was going to happen to them and agreed to be placed in the AR environment. Rimmer was just told to lick an envelope that was posted to himself.

I know Rimmer represented himself at his trial, but it never should have come to that, or his entire case thrown out on the basis of entrapment. Nothing he said or did in the AR environment should have been allowed as evidence, which means that Hollister would have had to prove another way that Rimmer was using confidential files for his personal gain. And if Rimmer had a shred of self-preservation (and we know he has it in spades), he might have been able to keep it to himself or at least slide by without being overt. I don't know; that one part has always bugged me.

Comments

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

There are many things which annoy me about Series 8 - the fact that almost every ep has dodgy jokes involving some kind of sexual assault for one. :(

But also the fluctuating IQ of our fave characters according to the demands of the plot, which ties into your point. WHY do the crew elect to represent themselves? And if they must, why doesn't Kochanski, who let's face it would have more credibility in the eyes of the court thanks to being an officer, take a more active role instead of leaving the talking to Cat of all people?

I think this is why Doug changed Hollister's character to an unscrupulous charlatan - to make it more believable that he would set Rimmer up like that. No explanation is given as to why he's so determined to imprison them. Unless he sees their superior knowledge of what happened regarding the nanobots as a threat to his own position as Captain?

[laurenthemself]

There are many things which annoy me about Series 8 - the fact that almost every ep has dodgy jokes involving some kind of sexual assault for one. :(

This is one of the major things for me, even setting aside other continuity and characterisation issues. I think it's partly why I'm one of the few people who admits to liking 8, and I always have to qualify it with a bazillion disclaimers.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

At least it's not as bad as "Buffy". I love that show, but reading meta has really opened my eyes to how problematic it is regarding consent. It's even spoilt "Once More, With Feeling" for me.

Oh well. We can still like problematic things.

And getting back to Kronette's original point, Rimmer does get an even worse deal than the others, but I suppose we're meant to see it as payback for his betrayal of the others. And possibly for his unscrupulous use of the sexual magnetism virus. *Ponders*

[bayliss.livejournal.com]

But all of the sexual magnetism stuff happens in the psychotropic testing, at least that's what i think. Once he licks the envelope and leaves the room I just assume he passes out and then is pulled into the AR suite with everyone else.


There are so many things wrong with 8 that, it's just not as fun to watch as The first 6, BTE, and X.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I phrased that badly. I agree that Rimmer's use of the virus all happens in AR - what I suppose I meant was that he does plan to use it whilst not in AR with the express intention of having sex, which isn't great either.

I know Lister also tries it on Kochanski in AR, but it's presented as a spur of the moment thing and doesn't get very far. Not that I'm exonerating him either.

Oh hell, let's just blame Doug's writing. Although how he goes from showing Arlene's rapey attitude in "Parallel Universe" as wrong to - this, I'm not sure. :/

[kronette.livejournal.com]

That's another annoyance - it wasn't Hollister's place to punish Rimmer for his betrayal. And it was a lousy, cruddy, smeggy thing for Lister to pour the virus over Rimmer. I still don't get how he could say it was an accident to Rimmer's face, but we saw Lister when he was doing it and it saw it as a laugh. I dont' know how that can be funny.

The whole thing is just bad. Bad bad bad. I forgive S8 for one reason; naked Rimmer and Lister.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I think this is why Doug changed Hollister's character to an unscrupulous charlatan - to make it more believable that he would set Rimmer up like that.

The Dennis the donut boy was a really stupid idea, anyway. Unless the JMC really is that stupid an entity, which is entirely possible. But...that clearly wasn't in his files, because Rimmer READ THEM ALREADY. He brought the muffin and the pile cream specifically because of what he'd found in the captain's files. There was nothing about his rise in ranks in there, clearly, because Rimmer would have tried to weasel a promotion out of the captain that way. No, nothing explains it. Not really, and not well.

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

I thought the narrative turn Series 8 took was interesting and somewhat inevitable -- maybe it's just me but I never thought having the entire crew of the Dwarf restored was going to end well. I always thought that it was going to turn into a creepy, zombie bureaucratic shit show with people ill-equipped for mobility in a universe full of rogue simulants, GELFs and random viruses steering the small rouge one off a cliff while Lister and the Dwarf crew watched helplessly.

For this reason, I could accept the seemingly radical change in Hollister's character. Finding themselves three million years outside of the boundaries of civilization seems to give him and people like Ackerman more reason to act in ways they deem fit as opposed to what would have been appropriate or acceptable before the accident -- hence the entrapment, hence the pitiful kangaroo court, hence hanging charges that essentially only apply to Lister and Rimmer to the rest of the 'bug crew.

Regarding consent and lack of same in series 8... the 23rd century doesn't seem like much of an enlightened place if the threat of rape is still a joke or where having your ability to consent tampered with due to exposure to the effects of a "sexual magnetism virus" *isn't* the equivalent of being roofied. And I don't know whether to say that it's a recurring problem in Doug's writing or a more widespread problem in media narratives (as you said, the writers of "Buffy" didn't think too hard about it either).

[kronette.livejournal.com]

You think it (prison) was done to contain them, so they didn't tell the rest of the crew that they were all dead/resurrected? That I could see and could even accept if it had been hinted at with all those Hollister talking to the camera recaps. It would still be a lousy, cruddy thing to do, but as the audience, it would make sense. What happened - makes no sense.

What I'm struggling with in a story, is regarding the virus and Lister dumping it over Rimmer. Rimmer wasn't affected by the virus, at least not directly. He said something about being wanted was like an aphrodesiac, with a lion's sexual appetite. But what if one person dragged him away from the prisoners, but they were affected? Rimmer could have tried to stop them, but with his state of mind after the prisoners started to turn on him, would he have? Is it considered rape by Rimmer if he has sex with someone while they're under the influence, but he didn't infect them? Or is it rape by the person affected by the virus, because Rimmer couldn't say no? Or do we take it out of the 'real world' and say that sex pollen/virus made them do it?

That is my dilemma. I don't know how to classify it, or if I should even try. Damn you, Doug!!

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

It's a huge mess. The final scene establishes that the virus affects everyone, regardless of gender or sexual orientation - and they're no longer in AR. What that implies about what happened after the credits is incredibly disturbing.

Oh, hell. *Sticks fingers in ears and tells self that the guards stopped the prisoners and then the virus wore off* :(

I suggest going with "The virus made them do it".

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Oh, hell. *Sticks fingers in ears and tells self that the guards stopped the prisoners and then the virus wore off* :(

I'm writing a fix, don't worry. *pats on shoulder* That's why I'm trying to work out the cause/effect/issues surrounding the use of the virus.

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

You think it (prison) was done to contain them, so they didn't tell the rest of the crew that they were all dead/resurrected? That I could see and could even accept if it had been hinted at with all those Hollister talking to the camera recaps. It would still be a lousy, cruddy thing to do, but as the audience, it would make sense. What happened - makes no sense.

I think that could have easily been one underlying motive, considering how poorly the *ship's psychiatrist* reacted to the idea. But, like you said, if Doug had at least hinted at that in Hollister's intros or his conversation with Holly, it would have lent a lot more credibility to the plot.

The whole virus is problematic for me. In this specific scenario, in the event of Rimmer being rescued in the prison by someone who is then exposed to the virus, if he's aware that it's the virus that is causing all of this to happen, I think any idea of consent is void and it then becomes his responsibility to put a stop to it. If he can. But you're right -- if he can't stop it and says "no," is the person reacting to the virus guilty of assault or is Lister (since he was the one that dosed Rimmer in the first place)?

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I think my scenario it's worse than all of this. Rimmer didn't know he'd been doused, so is he responsible for his actions? For all he knew, this person was coming on to him because they liked him (even if the circumstances were strange, considering a riot had nearly broken out minutes ago). I don't think our Rimmer would have said no to someone coming on to him, and he wouldn't have questioned why - at least not prior to sexual relations starting. Afterward though, I think guilt would get at him, realizing the person didn't know what they were doing, but he'd been affected too, so...it's a convoluted smegging mess. I'm getting it worked out in my head for this particular story, but how this could be considered a joke in a comedy series is still beyond my comprehension. It makes the guys treatment of Rimmer at the end of Terrorform seem nice and sane by comparison.

[saylee.livejournal.com]

Ugh, yes. Yet another thing that bugs me about S8. If they had at least acknowledged that it was completely bogus, via Rimmer complaining about it, it would be better. And of course, why would Cat, Kochanski and Kryten go to jail for a crime only Rimmer and Lister committed, and for that matter, why would Kochanski be put on trial at all? IIRC, Hollister says at first that they kidnapped her, doesn't he?

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I don't know, and I just rewatched it yesterday. Why doesn't Rimmer protest? Whyis KK so stupid as to not request her own lawyer? Because Doug needed them all in jail to get the series to work, though that doesn't even make sense. He split the crew up anyway, so Kryten and KK were off in the women's ward, Cat was nearly forgotten, and it was all about Lister, Rimmer and the captain.

The original charges as I found them listed in a script online: David Lister, you are formally charged with stealing and crashing a Starbug. You are also charged with having no pilot's license, and smuggling two stowaways on board, along with Navigation Officer Kristine Kochanski. Anything you say now, or do not say now, may be used at a board of enquiry against you. Do you require any form of aid?

However, as they went through the AR, Hollister and SaneHolly found them not guilty of all those charges, but then said that they'd obviously seen the crew confidential files, which was a serious charge and they were all guilty. Except they weren't - only Lister and Rimmer deliberately looked at the files (Lister 6 years previous when the crew was wiped out). And how can InsaneHolly be brought up on charges? He's the damn computer! Because he let Dave originally see the files, which enabled Lister to copy them to disk, which let Rimmer get them? Complete and utter horseshit.

*rageface* If we didn't love our show so much, it wouldn't annoy us so much, right?

[luxblue.livejournal.com]

I always thought the split of Grant Naylor really caused some problems with creative control - s8 had a distinct feel of overindulgence with the episodes not being trimmed down enough. I remember reading that the two of them sat down for days on end pruning the scripts together in previous seasons and it is obvious that wasn't happening here!

[kronette.livejournal.com]

overindulgence with the episodes not being trimmed down enough

YES! We went 7 years without a part 2 (not counting Emohawk), then we had a 3-parter and a 2-parter in the same series. I think it happened with Doug with BTE as well. It wasn't supposed to be a three parter, but rather an hour special which dragged out. He needs someone to tighten the scripts, check for errors/plot holes that Starbug could traverse, things like that.

A definite, clear idea for a main story that works within the time frame allotted should be the goal. I'm still amazed at what they crammed into "Gunmen." Talk about an incredibly tight, well done episode and hardly anything trimmed from the shot footage.

[luxblue.livejournal.com]

I always thought it was a shame they moved from the live audience. It may have restricted the set size but at least they had instant feedback on whether things were working