Fanvid, Plus - Is Rimmer Submissive?
Feb. 18th, 2014 04:01 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
janamelie.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
reddwarfslashFecklesHeckles on Tumblr has made a Rimmer fanvid with L/R hints. Since they're not on LJ, they asked me to share it here.
http://vimeo.com/86793751
Also, in response to a L/R meme, I asked Kahvi about her "submissive Rimmer" head canon. Since it's hard to have a proper conversation on Tumblr, lengthy copy and pasted meta (with credit, obviously) under the cut.
Me:
I don’t necessarily disagree with the common fanon theory that Rimmer is sexually submissive, but would you mind elaborating? What is it about his behaviour that makes you think that?
(I’ve just realised that apart from FSOS, Rimmer’s rarely portrayed as dominant, which considering Low Rimmer is rather odd.)
Kahvi:
Man alive (or not, as the case may be), where do I start? It’s one of those things where I can’t even pinpoint a moment where I went “hang on, I wonder if Rimmer might be submissive” - it was just never up for consideration. I find it near-textual rather than subtextual, it’s that clear to me. Let me try to itemize as best I can:
Rimmer is obsessed with rank and position. While he likes to give the impression that he enjoys being in charge, one of his major character traits is absolute incompetence, and a huge inferiority complex. He may like to give the impression he enjoys being in control, but being in control invariably makes him panic. (As does not being in control, but that doesn’t exactly counteract my argument…)
Whenever his imagination and/or personality is given free reign - Terrorform, Better Than Life (even more so in the novel), Rimmerworld, etc. - Rimmer ends up punishing himself. Basically, every chance he gets, Rimmer punishes himself severely, even in a game meant for leisure and pleasure. The fact that he literally ends up having himself oiled up and tortured in his own mind speaks not so much volumes as libraries.
Relatedly, he is incredibly hung up on discipline. He longs for order, a proper chain of command, being told what to do, and everything that goes along with it. His constant bossing around (or attempts thereof) of Lister is futile, which he knows by now, yet it’s all he knows. He feels wrong without this structure in place.
Most of Rimmer’s heroes and role models are strong authority figures. He clearly worships them, almost blissfully.
Rimmer is all about rules, regulations and order, and he gets excessively nervous when people ignore either. He doesn’t take charge and get things done (that’s Ace, who is, in many ways, Rimmer’s exact opposite); he panics. He wants clear instructions, and he wants someone to give them to him.
He’s a man filled with nervous tension and stress, and has no idea how to deal with it. He’s wound incredibly tightly, and seems to relax only when put in his place.
He takes orders like a natural, even when they aren’t orders. Lister, by nature a strong personality (if not dominant; I’m speaking in general terms here), is able to command Rimmer effortlessly when the latter is drunk - as in Thanks for the Memory. In other words, Rimmer looks to people who are able control him much like an adoring puppy looks to his master.
That’ll do for starters; there’s tons more. I think I’ve touched on that before, but IMO Low Rimmer is meant to symbolize Rimmer’s repressed sexuality in general, as well as his kinky side. I know he cracks a whip and tells Lister he’ll ‘have him’, but keep in mind, he’s evil. If you look beyond those dominant markers, he really only reads as kinky, not as swining one way or the other, D/s-wise.
Anyways, thanks for the interesting question; I could talk about this all night. :D
(EDIT: Please note that I am not saying that what Rimmer is displaying is the way all submissive folk behave; he’s a character in a comedy show, and he is drawn broadly and exaggeratedly. I know some subby folk who are incredibly badass, and some very meek doms indeed!)
Felineranger:
As one of the lonely few who tend to write Dom!Rimmer in this fandom and in the interests of equality I shall attempt to put forth a coherent counter theory! - You say that Rimmer likes to ‘give the impression’ that he enjoys being in charge but that in reality he finds the pressure too much. This is true in situations that he considers important such as exams or where there may be more serious consequences, but when he knows (or thinks) there are no real consequences to his behaviour he DOES enjoy the role of being in charge, often to the extent of taking it too far and abusing that power (ie Meltdown, Quarantine). He doesn’t want to handle real responsibility but he likes the illusion of it - which is kind of what BDSM is all about. -
You point out that Rimmer often seems to put himself in situations where he is punishing himself. Again this is true, and could point to masochistic tendencies, but it is key to highlight that Rimmer is invariably
trying to remove himself from those situations rather than submit to them. Given his history it is not surprising that he would have conflicted feelings about his own self-worth and that he may feel he deserves bad things, but there is a difference between feeling that you deserve something and actually wanting it. You could probe very deeply into psychology and meta here - do you define a person by what they do or by what they want (or is what a person does indicative of what they really want?) -
You highlight Rimmer’s preoccupation with the chain of command and say that he longs to be told what to do. I’m not entirely sure that I agree with that statement, in so much that Rimmer’s main belief in the chain of command is that it means people (mainly Lister) should do what HE says. Rimmer’s own behaviour to senior command is hardly exemplary. He puts on a thin facade of respect because he thinks it will help him get ahead, but he doesn’t
actually have much respect at all for Hollister or Todhunter and it doesn’t take much to reveal that. Look at the way he speaks to Todhunter in ‘The End’ for example. Would you speak to your boss that way? Or the tantrum he throws in the captain’s office in Stasis Leak when he disagrees with Lister’s punishment (and this is apparently after the effects of the mushrooms have worn off). Yes, Rimmer respects the chain of command, but only because he thinks that in a fair world he should be at the top of it and hopes to be so one day. -
You point out that Rimmer worships strong authority figures. Well, yeah. Because he wants to be like them. Give Rimmer a week as Napoleon’s errand boy though and he’ll quickly be bitching about how he’d do a far better job than that short-arse bastard. Give it a month and he’ll have jammed a pencil up his nose. -
You say that Rimmer is good at taking orders and only seems to relax when someone else is in charge. Again, I’m not 100% certain I agree with that. As I said above, in situations where it matters, he acts that way because (like bosses everywhere) he doesn’t want to be the one who gets the blame when it goes wrong. However, particularly in series 5&6 as we see Lister start to become more confident, he is anything but relaxed about it. He follows Lister’s lead because he has no choice - he is outnumbered - not because he’s ok with it and frequently argues that they should do something else. I think there is enough material in canon to put forward good arguments for either theory and, as I’ve said before, there’s actually no reason why Rimmer couldn’t find both sides of the Dom/Sub equation very satisfying for different reasons. I think for a lot of people it’s just easier to see him as a sub because they think ‘oh yeah, he’s a coward so that makes sense’ or because there is more comedy value in using that angle and they
don’t necessarily understand the emotional complexities of what it means to be sexually submissive.
Coming from my own perspective, I honestly don’t believe that Rimmer has what it takes to be submissive because he does not have either the courage or the necessary trust in others to allow himself to be that vulnerable. It just doesn’t make sense to me. When you add to that the fact that he is a tremendous physical coward, the abuse he suffered as a child, the fact that he distances himself from personal relationships…all of that, and again I stress this is just my perspective, adds up to a big nope. I would add this doesn’t necessarily make him dominant either but I certainly think that when starting out any kind of sexual relationship he would need to ‘feel’ dominant (in the broadest sense of the word) in order to be confident and comfortable enough to function. That’s not to say that he would be a good or successful dom, he’d probably be rubbish at it, but again it’s the illusion of control that’s important. Lister, I think, is skilled enough and understanding enough to guide him so that he feels like he’s in control while still keeping things in check. I saw a greetings card once that said ‘I wear the pants in our house. My wife said I could.’ That’s kind of how I see Lister and Rimmer’s relationship :-)
Captainshycoconut:
(Hi, I’m new around here but I feel I have to add my view)
Personally I agree with everything said directly above. Rimmer craves control and power, and his greatest regret/shame is his inability to get that in real life. BDSM provides that safe space for Rimmer to practise and try out new things (with Lister’s support and encouragement obviously). Lets not forget that every time his subconscious gets the run around, it uses that opportunity to get back at him and he never enjoys his submissive moments in canon.
However with a canon multi-verse, this can get much more interesting. I feel like Rimmer’s default personality, without any insecurities, trauma’s etc to develop him, would probably be able to switch pretty comfortably. Ace is probably the closest thing we have to this in canon. Therefore I feel like the Dwarf Rimmer would be able to enjoy subbing but it would come at a great cost to his emotional health in terms of trust issues and his self image.
There’s likely several sub Rimmer’s wandering around in alternate universes, but not this one.
Kahvi:
Guys, I started on a long and involved answer, but the long and short of it is that I disagree so vehemently with everything being said here that I find myself almost getting agitated. And that’s stupid. So I am bowing out of this discussion - I’ve made my case and I think it speaks for itself. Peace.
Felineranger:
Please don’t get agitated. It’s ok to disagree and your view is just as valid as anyone else’s. Red Dwarf is such a complex show and the characters have so much depth that there’s room for hundreds of headcanons and not one of them would ever be definitive so you’re right, it’s not worth fretting over. Peace.
Me:
http://vimeo.com/86793751
Also, in response to a L/R meme, I asked Kahvi about her "submissive Rimmer" head canon. Since it's hard to have a proper conversation on Tumblr, lengthy copy and pasted meta (with credit, obviously) under the cut.
Me:
I don’t necessarily disagree with the common fanon theory that Rimmer is sexually submissive, but would you mind elaborating? What is it about his behaviour that makes you think that?
(I’ve just realised that apart from FSOS, Rimmer’s rarely portrayed as dominant, which considering Low Rimmer is rather odd.)
Kahvi:
Man alive (or not, as the case may be), where do I start? It’s one of those things where I can’t even pinpoint a moment where I went “hang on, I wonder if Rimmer might be submissive” - it was just never up for consideration. I find it near-textual rather than subtextual, it’s that clear to me. Let me try to itemize as best I can:
Rimmer is obsessed with rank and position. While he likes to give the impression that he enjoys being in charge, one of his major character traits is absolute incompetence, and a huge inferiority complex. He may like to give the impression he enjoys being in control, but being in control invariably makes him panic. (As does not being in control, but that doesn’t exactly counteract my argument…)
Whenever his imagination and/or personality is given free reign - Terrorform, Better Than Life (even more so in the novel), Rimmerworld, etc. - Rimmer ends up punishing himself. Basically, every chance he gets, Rimmer punishes himself severely, even in a game meant for leisure and pleasure. The fact that he literally ends up having himself oiled up and tortured in his own mind speaks not so much volumes as libraries.
Relatedly, he is incredibly hung up on discipline. He longs for order, a proper chain of command, being told what to do, and everything that goes along with it. His constant bossing around (or attempts thereof) of Lister is futile, which he knows by now, yet it’s all he knows. He feels wrong without this structure in place.
Most of Rimmer’s heroes and role models are strong authority figures. He clearly worships them, almost blissfully.
Rimmer is all about rules, regulations and order, and he gets excessively nervous when people ignore either. He doesn’t take charge and get things done (that’s Ace, who is, in many ways, Rimmer’s exact opposite); he panics. He wants clear instructions, and he wants someone to give them to him.
He’s a man filled with nervous tension and stress, and has no idea how to deal with it. He’s wound incredibly tightly, and seems to relax only when put in his place.
He takes orders like a natural, even when they aren’t orders. Lister, by nature a strong personality (if not dominant; I’m speaking in general terms here), is able to command Rimmer effortlessly when the latter is drunk - as in Thanks for the Memory. In other words, Rimmer looks to people who are able control him much like an adoring puppy looks to his master.
That’ll do for starters; there’s tons more. I think I’ve touched on that before, but IMO Low Rimmer is meant to symbolize Rimmer’s repressed sexuality in general, as well as his kinky side. I know he cracks a whip and tells Lister he’ll ‘have him’, but keep in mind, he’s evil. If you look beyond those dominant markers, he really only reads as kinky, not as swining one way or the other, D/s-wise.
Anyways, thanks for the interesting question; I could talk about this all night. :D
(EDIT: Please note that I am not saying that what Rimmer is displaying is the way all submissive folk behave; he’s a character in a comedy show, and he is drawn broadly and exaggeratedly. I know some subby folk who are incredibly badass, and some very meek doms indeed!)
Felineranger:
As one of the lonely few who tend to write Dom!Rimmer in this fandom and in the interests of equality I shall attempt to put forth a coherent counter theory! - You say that Rimmer likes to ‘give the impression’ that he enjoys being in charge but that in reality he finds the pressure too much. This is true in situations that he considers important such as exams or where there may be more serious consequences, but when he knows (or thinks) there are no real consequences to his behaviour he DOES enjoy the role of being in charge, often to the extent of taking it too far and abusing that power (ie Meltdown, Quarantine). He doesn’t want to handle real responsibility but he likes the illusion of it - which is kind of what BDSM is all about. -
You point out that Rimmer often seems to put himself in situations where he is punishing himself. Again this is true, and could point to masochistic tendencies, but it is key to highlight that Rimmer is invariably
trying to remove himself from those situations rather than submit to them. Given his history it is not surprising that he would have conflicted feelings about his own self-worth and that he may feel he deserves bad things, but there is a difference between feeling that you deserve something and actually wanting it. You could probe very deeply into psychology and meta here - do you define a person by what they do or by what they want (or is what a person does indicative of what they really want?) -
You highlight Rimmer’s preoccupation with the chain of command and say that he longs to be told what to do. I’m not entirely sure that I agree with that statement, in so much that Rimmer’s main belief in the chain of command is that it means people (mainly Lister) should do what HE says. Rimmer’s own behaviour to senior command is hardly exemplary. He puts on a thin facade of respect because he thinks it will help him get ahead, but he doesn’t
actually have much respect at all for Hollister or Todhunter and it doesn’t take much to reveal that. Look at the way he speaks to Todhunter in ‘The End’ for example. Would you speak to your boss that way? Or the tantrum he throws in the captain’s office in Stasis Leak when he disagrees with Lister’s punishment (and this is apparently after the effects of the mushrooms have worn off). Yes, Rimmer respects the chain of command, but only because he thinks that in a fair world he should be at the top of it and hopes to be so one day. -
You point out that Rimmer worships strong authority figures. Well, yeah. Because he wants to be like them. Give Rimmer a week as Napoleon’s errand boy though and he’ll quickly be bitching about how he’d do a far better job than that short-arse bastard. Give it a month and he’ll have jammed a pencil up his nose. -
You say that Rimmer is good at taking orders and only seems to relax when someone else is in charge. Again, I’m not 100% certain I agree with that. As I said above, in situations where it matters, he acts that way because (like bosses everywhere) he doesn’t want to be the one who gets the blame when it goes wrong. However, particularly in series 5&6 as we see Lister start to become more confident, he is anything but relaxed about it. He follows Lister’s lead because he has no choice - he is outnumbered - not because he’s ok with it and frequently argues that they should do something else. I think there is enough material in canon to put forward good arguments for either theory and, as I’ve said before, there’s actually no reason why Rimmer couldn’t find both sides of the Dom/Sub equation very satisfying for different reasons. I think for a lot of people it’s just easier to see him as a sub because they think ‘oh yeah, he’s a coward so that makes sense’ or because there is more comedy value in using that angle and they
don’t necessarily understand the emotional complexities of what it means to be sexually submissive.
Coming from my own perspective, I honestly don’t believe that Rimmer has what it takes to be submissive because he does not have either the courage or the necessary trust in others to allow himself to be that vulnerable. It just doesn’t make sense to me. When you add to that the fact that he is a tremendous physical coward, the abuse he suffered as a child, the fact that he distances himself from personal relationships…all of that, and again I stress this is just my perspective, adds up to a big nope. I would add this doesn’t necessarily make him dominant either but I certainly think that when starting out any kind of sexual relationship he would need to ‘feel’ dominant (in the broadest sense of the word) in order to be confident and comfortable enough to function. That’s not to say that he would be a good or successful dom, he’d probably be rubbish at it, but again it’s the illusion of control that’s important. Lister, I think, is skilled enough and understanding enough to guide him so that he feels like he’s in control while still keeping things in check. I saw a greetings card once that said ‘I wear the pants in our house. My wife said I could.’ That’s kind of how I see Lister and Rimmer’s relationship :-)
Captainshycoconut:
(Hi, I’m new around here but I feel I have to add my view)
Personally I agree with everything said directly above. Rimmer craves control and power, and his greatest regret/shame is his inability to get that in real life. BDSM provides that safe space for Rimmer to practise and try out new things (with Lister’s support and encouragement obviously). Lets not forget that every time his subconscious gets the run around, it uses that opportunity to get back at him and he never enjoys his submissive moments in canon.
However with a canon multi-verse, this can get much more interesting. I feel like Rimmer’s default personality, without any insecurities, trauma’s etc to develop him, would probably be able to switch pretty comfortably. Ace is probably the closest thing we have to this in canon. Therefore I feel like the Dwarf Rimmer would be able to enjoy subbing but it would come at a great cost to his emotional health in terms of trust issues and his self image.
There’s likely several sub Rimmer’s wandering around in alternate universes, but not this one.
Kahvi:
Guys, I started on a long and involved answer, but the long and short of it is that I disagree so vehemently with everything being said here that I find myself almost getting agitated. And that’s stupid. So I am bowing out of this discussion - I’ve made my case and I think it speaks for itself. Peace.
Felineranger:
Please don’t get agitated. It’s ok to disagree and your view is just as valid as anyone else’s. Red Dwarf is such a complex show and the characters have so much depth that there’s room for hundreds of headcanons and not one of them would ever be definitive so you’re right, it’s not worth fretting over. Peace.
Me:
Thanks Kahvi, Felineranger and Captainshycoconut. I didn’t expect to provoke such strong feelings, but passionate debate is good.
I think there is indeed ample evidence on both sides, which is great because I personally enjoy fic with both sub and Dom!Rimmer. I also enjoy fic with just regular “vanilla” sex. :)
Rimmer is a complex character and you could easily make a case for him being asexual if you tried. Or even - gasp! - straight. ;)
So, just because it's fun, what do others think?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2014-02-19 09:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-20 03:21 am (UTC)I bet if I sat and watched nothing but the first two series for a few weeks, I'd feel the need to start writing early show fic :)
no subject
Date: 2014-02-20 05:24 pm (UTC)