Lister Character Meta

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

A recent discussion on Tumblr about Lister and how he's a more complex character than he seems led Kahvi to post a character meta there which I'm reposting here with her permission.  Copy and pasted for easier reading; covers his relationship with Rimmer, obviously, but is a fascinating read in its own right.

On Dave Lister Part 1: Last Human

It was brought to my attention recently that while fandom spends a lot of time discussing Rimmer and his various personality flaws and neurosies, very little is written about Lister. Well, why would there be? Compared to Rimmer, Lister is the rational to offset the irrational, the mellow to offset the hysterical, the tolerant to offset the biased. He is kind where Rimmer is cruel, calm where Rimmer is frantic, optimistic where Rimmer is fatalistic, mentally balanced where Rimmer is imbalanced. In short: boring. Right?

Well, no. Not really.

The problem with having a character like Rimmer, is that he is so exaggeratedly flawed and riddled with issues that other characters can’t help but seem paragons of virtue in comparison. While the most common mischaracterization of Rimmer in fan fiction is to reduce or excuse his flaws, the most common mischaracterization of Lister is to ignore his flaws and myriad issues. And they are myriad. In many ways, Lister is a fantastic character, both as a concept and as a person. The last human being alive in the universe is a lower class, non-traditionally masculine POC; in touch with his emotions, kind, well-intentioned and artistic, if not artistically talented. He’s well-rounded, complex, and interesting. He’s also utterly alone, cast off from everything and everyone he’s ever known and destined to spend the rest of his life inside a metal box.

While Lister’s interpersonal skills and mental state are far better than Rimmer’s, this actually puts him at a disadvantage. We don’t know what Rimmer’s first words were when reawakened by Holly as a hologram, but it’s not unlikely that they could have been “I smegging knew it!” Rimmer is paranoid enough to always assume and expect the worst. Despite his complaints, he copes very well with the death both of himself and the rest of the human race. And no wonder; Rimmer dislikes people, in general. Lister loves people. Lister had friends and family and exes and co-workers whom he cared about. Rimmer is glad to get away from all the people in his life. Lister’s loss is devestating, and throughout the the series, he struggles more and more to cope with it. Most of the time, his coping mechanism of choice is to ignore it; they’ll find Earth, he’ll find Kochanski, everything will be fine! For a man who planned and fully expected to be able to retire to Fiji and set up a farm and home with a woman who kept rejecting him, this isn’t that much of a leap of faith. Lister copes by rejecting reality; a recurring theme in the show. And of course, that eventually catches up with him. Repeatedly.

Grant/Naylor’s original concept for the character of Lister was, in fact, a highly unstable man, tethering on the edge of serious psychological illness. After all, how would you expect a person to react to the idea that you are alone and adrift in space, three million years into the future? Having Lister actually coping well with the situation certainly makes for a more interesting character, but it does not mean he is immune. In the novels, Grant/Naylor show what would have happened if Lister were left to his own devices - the result is a rapid decent into alcoholism and depression (an abyss on the edge of which he balances throughout the show). Lister quite literally needs Rimmer to keep him sane.

One negative trait often attributed to Lister, is selfishness. He puts the crew in danger in order to secure a supply of curry in Tikka to Ride; he does the same in order to get strings for his guitar in series VIII. He tricks Rimmer into thinking he burned the same guitar in Marooned, while burning Rimmer’s beloved chest instead. Though he often acts with fierce self-interest, it’s important to remember that curry, beer and his guitar are among the few staples that keep Lister going. Lister, meanwhile, is very much aware of this, and often shows shame at his actions. The series X episode Fathers & Suns really get to the heart of this, as Lister punishes himself for his bad behavior by - pointedly - getting rid of his guitar. Consider, also, the copious amounts of hidden self-loathing this episode reveals. More on that in Part 2.


Part 2: Self Loathing Beast

As I touched on in Part 1, Father & Suns is not the first episode in which Lister’s hidden self-loathing is revealed. The Inquisitor spells it out rather neatly; Lister is fully aware of his shortcomings, his laziness, his complacency, his lack of ambition and drive, and quite literally condemns himself to death for it. This is paralleled in Fathers & Suns, where Lister inadvertently does the same - at least, it appears to be inadvertently. Assuming it is not, the episode takes a far darker turn. While Rimmer continually beats himself up and displays every sign of deep self-loathing - to the point where it actually manifests as a creature intent on torturing him (disregarding, for the moment, the obvious undertones of repressed sexuality in that scene) in Terrorform - Rimmer lets himself off in The Inquisitor, while Lister does not. It’s not that Lister’s standards are higher - it would be difficult to have higher standards than those Rimmer keeps futilely striving for - but rather that he judges himself much more harshly. Rimmer always sees his shortcomings and flaws as someone elses’s fault, while Lister takes full responsibility for his own, real or imagined. Lister knows he has ‘brains he’s never used’, and now that the world as he knows it is over, he will never get the chance to. Rimmer is secretly relieved that he doesn’t have to fulfill his potential, Lister is raked with guilt that he no longer can. Should they ever meet Lister’s self loathing beast, the crew may not escape quite so easily.

That Lister would have survivor’s guilt is inevitable. Any survior of a horrible accident will ask themselves why they were the one who survived. What made them more worthy? His situation doesn’t help matters: Lister is 25 years old in The End, at the age where many people feel like they should start to think about getting their lives together, get a better job, start thinking about the future. Lister is nowhere near that stage, before the accident. He has kept telling himself he has plenty of time, and while he honestly wants to buy a farm on Fiji, settle down with Kochanski and have a family, these are long-term plans. Lister is undecided, unsettled, free and carefree, but aware that sooner or later, that life will have to end. Then, the world ends, and the possibility of ever improving his life is torn away from him. In one instant, all the things he’s never done in his life; all the chances he’s let slip past, all the things he’s delayed or procrastinated from doing all hit him at once. Lister asks himself why he is worthy of survival, out of the entire human race, and the inevitable answer is that he is not. Is Lister suicidal? Not throughout the show, and not obviously, though he struggles with depression to various degrees.

Though Lister is by nature kind, helpful and optimistic, there’s no question that his guilt and depression makes him strive to overcompensate by exaggerating these traits. He may not have deserved to survive, he feels, but he can do his best to make the best of the situation, for everyone. This, again, is most likely part of his basic nature; to try to accommodate, help, include, cheer up and make things better, but now it becomes a near obsession. His attitude and his interpresonal skills are all that he has. Notably, in Quarantine, what drives Cat and Kryten nuts is Lister’s continued insistence that everything is going to be all right, and his repeated attempts to cheer them up. The fact that Lister has to deal with Rimmer, a man who resists any attempts at being cheered up, and whose personality clashes dramatically with his, is both an added frustration, and a challenge that keeps Lister mentally stimulated and on his toes. And by focusing on other people and their happiness, Lister is allowed to forget his own. This single-mindedness, however, often leads him to make choices that have disastrous conceqences for the rest of the crew, as in Thanks for the Memory. He wanted to make Rimmer happy, and could not begin to see the potential concequences beyond that.

In short, Lister needs to be good and do good in order to justify his own existence to himself.

Stay tuned for Part 3, in which I will be discussing Lister’s sexuality and body image. ;)

On David Lister - Part 3: “You’ve Given Me Breasts!”

An initial disclaimer: I am cis and mostly heterosexual - please do call me out on any unintended cissexism, homophobia, transphobia or transmisogyny in this part!

One particularly refreshing aspect of Lister’s character is his attitude towards gender and sexuality, both his own and that of others. It’s not perfect, and under pressure he does tend to revert to problematic thinking, as shown in Parallel Universe, and when Kochanski confronts him about his feelings on homosexuality in Duct Soup, however, there is little doubt that Lister is unselfconcious,relaxed and confident about his own gender presentation and sexuality, and strives to be fair and accepting of that of others. It’s easy to miss Lister’s problematic behavior, because in comparison with Rimmer, he seems hardly to have any. He does, however; he’s a three dimensional character, and it would be unrealistic for him not to, even in a future society potentially better than our own. It’s interesting to note that when challenged on things like homophobia, sexism and his own privilege, Lister is usually much more defensive and protesting than when challenged on other things (again, see Parallel Universe and Duct Soup). Lister really, really wants to be a good ally; as I mentioned in Part 2, his preception of himself as a Good Person who does The Right Thing is essential to his self-worth and wellbeing.

In many ways, it is a shame that we never get to see Lister pregnant or dealing with the aftermath of birth, though on the other hand it was probably a wise choice for Grant/Naylor to avoid showing it. The issues connected with a male-identified person wihout a uterus or other relevant internal sexual organs, getting pregnant - and not by choice - are myriad; giving birth, having to deal with the (presumably) resulting body changes and inevitable dysphoria, for starters. Add to this the complication of parallel universe genetics and natural laws, the trauma of having to give up his children, and you’re really not left with much basis for comedy! Lister never mentions his children again - though he does mention being pregnant, for example in Demons and Angels - which is quite telling. Lister’s approach to dealing with traumatic events seems to be to pretend they’re unimportant, or, at worst, ignore them completely.

While Lister is apparently comfortable with his gender and sexuality - more on the latter below - his body image is quite another matter. The obvious episode that highlights this is Bodyswap; consider the fact that Lister is willing to let Rimmer take over his body just so he can get closer to some imagined ideal. Yes, certainly, he’s also doing this to cater to Rimmer’s wishes, but it’s obvious that Rimmer knows exactly which buttons to push. Jibes against his weight is something he knows will hit Lister, and hit him hard. Lister knows Rimmer well enough to know he can’t trust him, yet he choses to take the risk anyway… with near-fatal results. It’s not something Lister talks about much - but importantly, neither is his lost children - yet ‘growing fat’ is one of the things he explicitly mentions to The Creator in Back to Earth. And, of course, we know where all this is coming from: as he reveals to Kryten, as a child he was teased for being fat, caused, he believes, by being overfed and spoiled by his grandmother. (It can be argued that, given Lister’s later diet and lack of significant weight gain despite it, regardless of Rimmer’s comments, this might simply have been a matter of genetics.)

As for sex, Lister certainly enjoys it, again, in contrast to Rimmer, who canonically talks a lot about it, but invariably panics when presented with an actual opportunity. See, for example, the deleted scene from Holoship, where he literally runs away from Nirvanah Crane. Lister was sexually active from a very early age, and while he jokingly talks about being a ‘caring, sensitive lover’, he never actually boasts about his sexual exploits. There seems to be a fandom consensus that Lister is exceptionally skilled or experienced when it comes to sex, and while he may well be the latter, there is no canonical evidence of the former. From Rimmer’s… first hand/second hand experience in Thanks for the Memory, we know that at least one of Lister’s lovers very much enjoyed the experience. We know he likes to play sex simulations in AR, often enough that Rimmer teases him about it. There is no reason to believe that Lister is bad in bed, but there is equally little reason to assume he’s some sort of sex god, fun though it may be. However, his patience, general lack of hang-ups and pathological desire to please has to help! Attraction seems heavily linked with affection for Lister; in Camille, he doesn’t see her as some sort of sex goddess, but rather as a human being with whom he can really connect. He likes Kohcanski not because of her physical attractiveness, but because of her personality and smile. (Which begs the question of why he doesn’t react to the alternate dimension Kochanski’s changed personality more, but that’s a subject for another meta.)

Given his open-mindedness and apparent attraction to personality before physicality, does this mean Lister might be attracted to other genders than female? That’s what I’ll be discussing in the final part of this series, along with his relationship to Rimmer!


Part 4: The Rimmer Experience

It’s not surprising that there is little discussion in fandom about Lister’s sexual orientation. Again, the comparison with Rimmer makes it very easy to disregard him; Lister is comfortable talking about sex, openly shows affection, is not afraid to touch or hug other men - going so far as to kiss Petersen on the mouth in Stasis Leak - obviously loves Kochanski and has a history of sexual encounters with women. Not for him Rimmer’s obvious repression and confused, warped ideas of women, relationships, sexuality and what an ‘attractive woman’ should look like (as evidenced most strikingly by his customization of Pree in Fathers & Suns). Lister never feels the need to proclaim his sexual orientation, nor deny it. Or even talk about it at all. Whatever it is, he appears utterly comfortable in it. Good for him, bad for anyone trying to figure out how he identifies. He does get flustered in Duct Soup at the idea that his dimensional alternate might be gay; the only time we see him on the defensive about his sexuality. However, given his mental state at the time, and the circumstances, it’s hard to draw any conclusions from this.

It’s tempting to want to cast such a sexually active and confident, open-minded and universally affectionate character as bi or pansexual, simply because it would compliment his personality, but there is little canonical suggestion of this either way. (And, of course, there is no such thing as proscribed behavior for any sexual orientation.) What we can say for certain is that Lister likes women, and enjoys being affectionate with his male friends. And speaking of which…

Rimmer and Lister is a popular slash pairing for many reasons, but mainly, they are an attractive idea as a romantic and sexual pairing for much the same reasons any odd couple in fiction is; they are contrasts and foils to one another, which makes for tension, conflict and interesting power dynamics. Regardless of how you chose to interpret the tension between them, it definitely exists. It is also clear that they do care about one another; Lister has saved Rimmer’s life multiple times, even though, occasionally, he has been the one who endangered it in the first place. Throughout the show, Lister continues to try to reach out to Rimmer, with various success. Whenever he tries to make an effort on Rimmer’s behalf, it often has disastrous results, like in Thanks for the Memory. Though Lister spends a lot of time pranking and trying to rile Rimmer up, this can partly be seen as an effort to get a reaction- any reaction - out of Rimmer. For his part, Rimmer seems equally frustrated in trying to communicated with Lister, and whishes they were similar. His evident joy when he thinks Lister has come ‘round to his way of thinking regarding safety reports in Entangled, speaks volumes to this. Equally, the way Lister is instantly draw to Ace Rimmer, indicates that he too wishes Rimmer would change. If Rimmer and Lister are attracted to one another, it would be fair to say that at the same time, they do not always like one another. Though, as Lister points out in Justice, he is, despite this, probably Rimmer’s best friend.

Despite everything, Lister applies his obsessive stubbornness and optimism to his faith in Rimmer’s capacity for self-improvement, and it is this that leads him, eventually, to force Rimmer’s hand in Stoke Me a Clipper. In what is arguably an incredible overstepping of boundaries, Lister puts Rimmer in a position where Lister knows he will have no choice but to accept his role as Ace. Watching Lister’s reactions in this episode, it’s clear that he wants what’s best for Rimmer, and for once, it seems to work out for the better. (Or does it? We never know, after all, if Rimmer is happy with his new life…) Lister not only has an incredible capacity for love, he has a need to love, to care for. He aggressively wants the best for everyone, and tends to forget that his idea of what is best might not always mesh with the wants and needs of the people he cares about. With Rimmer, this effect is amplified, as Lister is used to disregarding Rimmer’s opinions as inferior to his own.

Interestingly enough, it is when Rimmer is gone that the effect he has had on Lister can be fully appreciated. Lister finds himself missing Rimmer to the point where he begins to emulate his behavior and adopt his opinions; he becomes cleaner, tidier, and begins to idolize Rimmer in his mind. Tellingly, the version of Rimmer he dreams about is not Ace, but something in-between; a Rimmer with the edges smoothed out. Perhaps it is this he hoped being Ace would do to Rimmer - not change him completely, but help him become a better version of himself. (Of coures, again, “better” is a subjective term..) Even after he has been reminded of all of Rimmer’s bad sides in Blue, and the warped image in his mind has returned to normal, Lister still misses “his” Rimmer. The interaction between Lister and the resurrected Rimmer in series VIII, highlights equally how their relationship has changed over the years (much as this Rimmer has not), and how much Lister now openly and wholeheartedly cares for him.

David Lister is the heart and soul of the show, but Rimmer is what sets him off and contrasts him. You have to admit they look good together. And regardless of whether or not they are lovers, perhaps they might one day also be friends.

Comments

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

This is just an amazing piece on insight. I applaud who wrote it, it makes you think. I thought one of the most moving Lister scenes was in "Balance of Power" when he's remembering what it was like to hang out with his friends, then fade to him being all alone. This is just a brilliant character piece. And the show wouldn't be the same without Lister, as well as without Rimmer (IMHO).

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that scene in "Balance Of Power" is heartbreaking, even if Grant Naylor typically undercut it with the cigarette gag.

I just noticed the parallel between Lister getting rid of his guitar in "F&S" and replacing it with a cardboard cut-out and what he does in "Marooned" - cuts a guitar-shaped hole in Rimmer's trunk. That's actually a great callback and suggests that he has subconscious guilt about that even all these years later.

As I said elsewhere, this meta gets to the heart of why I like Lister so much - he has many attractive qualities, but is still a complex human being. :)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Aw, thanks muchly! And urgh, I apologize for the myriad typos. I wrote part 4 drunk. Perhaps appropriately.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

This is very insightful. It's easy to forget the darker aspects of Lister's life, especially his obvious loneliness and fragile emotional health, because of the way they're played for laughs (not that I blame Grant and/or Naylor for doing that), but they're there. And from a shippy point of view, it's both promising and heart-wrenching to see how much he needs Rimmer.

Sometimes I wonder how different things would be if Chris hadn't left — presumably there would have been no "All Rimmers become Ace" plotline, no Nano-Rimmer, etc. Really odd to think about.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

One little detail I noticed in Series X is that he now takes six (!) sugars in his tea or coffee. I suppose that fits with his love of spicy food, but it does also smack of a comfort blanket, not that I can blame him.

Yes, imagining the rest of Series 7 and Series 8 with a Rimmer who'd never left does make you wonder if they'd have gone down the same plot routes. Maybe Doug would have brought back the ship's crew with the original Kochanski and she'd have helped them prove their innocence or something.

I think though that Chris's decision actually prolonged the life of the show in the long run as it gave Doug more to work with.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Re: Chris: Oh, definitely. It also gives shippers a lot more to work with :p...and angst/cry over. I have some trouble re-watching Stoke Me a Clipper because it's so slashy yet so sad and argh :(

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

It's beautifully lit (like all of Series 7), has stirring music and Craig looking edible, so I don't have problems watching it. ;) It does make me sad though.

Roadstergal's written lots of angsty, terrific fic around this ep, some in partnership with Kahvi, if you go back far enough in the Archive here. :)

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we both keep coming back to SMAC, and series VI/VII in general, because of the emotional changes and jarring going on around that time. It all culminates in SMAC, and then, of course, Blue... but I've always felt Blue was a lot less interesting than what happens before it...

[sunny-bexster.livejournal.com]

This is just wonderful. It's got me thinking about my reaction to watching 'Fathers and Sons' for the first time, when I turned to my significant other and whispered "I think Lister might have finally lost it". I think there's also a comment in that series where Lister remarks that he'll "just keep feeling suicidal" or something along those lines. I got the impression that this was meant to be funny, in the sense of Lister being darkly witty - but there was a noticeably subdued laugh from the audience, as if they weren't sure whether Lister was actually considering taking his own life.

I've often wondered why Lister has never pointed out to Rimmer how bad his own early life was. It's a testament to Lister's cheerfulness and general good character that when faced with Rimmer's 'my life is awful' complaints tactfully doesn't mention him being orphaned, losing a family member, the curious lack of references (save that one in 'Kryten') to a mother, his own bullying, etc. If Lister does open up about these aspects of his life, i.e. the fact he's adopted, it's either remarked on in a lighthearted way, or promptly met with ridicule by Rimmer and Cat.

This has given me some things to ponder on...

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I think I've said this before, but I feel the crucial difference between Lister and Rimmer's upbringings is that the people who raised Lister loved him and he therefore felt himself worthy of love, which I don't think Rimmer does, sadly.

Which isn't to say that Lister has no right to complain, of course. I think he's the victim of his own cheerful nature - when he tries to be serious, the others don't take him seriously because they don't think he's had it that bad.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yes! Right on the money, there.

As for Rimmer, the tragicomic thing abut him is that his background and upbringing IS responsible for all his problems, just not in the way he thinks. :p

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Hello you! <3

I think Janamelie is on to something important; Lister is too cheerful for his own good. I think he genuinely doesn't see these things. Sure, he'll complain about bad neighborhoods or bullying and incidental things like that, but I don't think he himself sees it in context, you know?

But I honestly think Craig does. And I think it shows in his acting.