Writing Lister

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Sorry for posting so much on the group, but I have SO many questions.

So I'm still working on my "epic" and I've been going back and forth between writing Lister phonetically and not writing him phonetically. I want to be consistent throughout the fic and I can't decide which I prefer. Sometimes it just feels right writing Lister with an occasional dropped consonant and in' instead of ing. Other-times it feels... I dunno, forced? Maybe like I'm trying TOO hard to sound like Lister.

I know I've encountered both phonetic and non-phonetic Listers in my fanfic readings, and I was curious what everyone else thinks of it. Do you have a preference? Does it irritate you when you read, "smeggin' hell" instead of "smegging hell" or do you prefer it?

This has probably been discussed before, so I apologize if I'm dredging up a dead-horse to beat. :)

Comments

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Please don't apologise - I often feel I'm posting too much, so to have others raising topics is fine by me. And I actually can't remember this specific one before. :)

For me, Lister is best when his accent isn't rendered phonetically, but that's my personal preference - people may disagree. He sounds most natural to me when he occasionally drops "g"s etc but not constantly. A little goes a long way.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Oh gawd, please don't apologize; this is one of my favorite topics. Sadly. :p

Y'know, when I started writing Rimmer/Lister with roadstergal, I would go through the drafts and change all of her Lister vocalization to match mine (not that she usually wrote it). She would then quietly change it back, and none of us would ever mention it. I'm telling you this to underline the point that this is very much a matter of personal preference.

If you'd like my advice, as an experienced fellow Lister writer? Don't worry about consistency.

The thing is, Lister's (and Craig's) accent isn't consistent throughout the shows. I think that's part of why I often feel like you do, that it sometimes feels right and sometimes doesn't. My advice is to go with what feels right at the time. Personally, I will happily go from "ye" to "you" and back again several times in a sentence. And I quite often find myself writing something like "You just don't understand what yer saying, do ye?" I just go with what feels right. I've not had any complaints to date!

(As an aside, I do think that various incarnations of Lister have slightly different accents and modes of speech, and I often use that in fic. For example, I tend to write Spanners totally un-phonetically, unless he gets excited. Hello, I'm Kat, and I'm a language geek.)

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

I prefer non-phonetic, mostly because his dialect (and anyone's dialect, for that matter) is more complex than dropped g's and h's. There are prominent features that can't really be rendered in written English, such as the vowels (as in "son" "funny" "first" "chair" etc., etc.), the hard consonants ("k" becoming "khh") and the trilled r, although we hear less and less of the latter two as Craig's accent gets softer. I think people who are familiar with the character can read non-phonetic dialogue and hear him speak the way he's supposed to sound.

The only thing that occasionally gives me pause is the me/my alternation, but I usually avoid writing that out too because it doesn't seem to be systematic in Craig's/Lister's speech, at least not anymore. In general, though, I think a different approach is needed when the actual words vary. For example, if a character uses "nowt" instead of "nothing," it would be weird to make them say "nothing."

I promise I'm not saying this to slag anyone off or to be self-righteous, but it almost seems unfair to portray, say, Rimmer's speech as a standard/norm and therefore not in need of any changes to the transcription.


Also, I may be biased because faithful phonetic rendering in books like Wuthering Heights drove me insane.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

You know, it's odd, the me/my thing is the one thing that gives me pause too - for the reasons you state.

Oh, and as you mention Rimmer; he's... semi-canonically meant to have a "thick Ionian accent", going by the books, but of course we don't know what that is yet. I like that idea though.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Ooh, what if the Ionian accent = Essex-ish and Rimmer would therefore sound like Gordon Brittas if not for his upbringing/facade? Though that wouldn't explain the "thick" part (since it's supposed to be noticeable). Hmm. Hmmmmm.

[(Anonymous)]

OOOOH I HAVE A HEADCANON ABOUT THIS my headcanon is that Rimmer's accent in the show is a thick Ionian accent, because "received pronunciation" has moved on by the ?23rd century (and probably sounds kinda mid-Atlantic, what with all the "dollarpounds" stuff?), and therefore modern Standard British English sounds massively regional!

It comes as a pair with my other headcanon, that Io is a specifically British colony (which explains why Rimmer asks to be taken to the British Embassy in Terrorform, rather than to the Ionian Embassy, because Ionians still think of themselves as British), ergo the Ionian accent developed out of modern RP, in isolation from whatever became "RP" back on Earth :D

(Hello, I'm Feckles, and I'm such a language geek this is one of the few kinds of thread that will have me wishing I had a proper LJ account instead of having to post on anon. :) )

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Hiya! I know I prefer to read and write non-phonetically, because I can hear his voice in my head as I'm reading and it adds the accent perfectly fine. I used to write for Highlander and I massacred the Scottish brogue in my first few stories, despised it after a few years and fixed it to correct spelling before putting them on AO3. It makes it harder to read, IMHO. If you have the characters down (and you seem to), then we'll automatically hear the correct accent/cadence in their voices.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

This comment has me tickled pink. I'm still so new at it all I get nervous that I'm biting off more than I can chew with the writing. I still fret that I'm not getting the characters quite right. Thanks for that, it's encouraging. :)

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

I like Lister dropping letters and all that.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I tend to write Lister mostly unphoenetically, as we all know what he sounds like and I think focusing too much on the accent can actually derail the dialogue. I drop things in occasionally, but it's usually to show that Lister himself is playing up the more 'rough and ready' or 'cheeky scouser' elements of his personality. It's nice to make reference now and then to the fact that no, he doesn't speak like Rimmer, but you don't need to hammer the point home.

[jameta4all.livejournal.com]

I read an interesting thing discussing this (can't remember where) and it points out that the use of phonetic speech is often classist/racist/ableist in that it emphasises that someone is different to the other characters, particularly that they are incapable of "The Queen's English" or they have a stutter. The only way to make it equal would be to make all speech phonetic which would be insane to read. I can understand their point. I say barthe and my friend says baff for bath, but if say a Japanese person were to say it the writer would likely put down 'bafu', and leave our pronunciations as 'bath'.

I generally go by the rule of if it's relevant to point out someone's accent (for example, if you were going to do the "come in my house" joke by Mickey Flanagan) then it's fine, but otherwise leave it alone. If the speech pattern is different then that's fine too, as rosecathy1 pointed out, nothing is not really a satisfactory replacement for nowt.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Good point - if a character speaks markedly differently to the rest it can jar and irritate the reader. As Kronette pointed out, we all know how Lister sounds and hear him in our heads when reading, so phonetic speech all the time is redundant.

I know it's not exactly the same, but you could approach it the same way as Rimmer saying things like "Tickety boo" - fun to throw in sometimes, but not to be overdone. :)

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Yes this is what I had in mind regarding classism — that example is great. I doubt that anyone in the fandom intends to portray Lister unfavourably, but again, why him and not others, you know? Come to think of it, I haven't seen many fics that write out the Hollys' accent, which is arguably as marked as Lister's. Might be because I tend to stick to L/R :)

Also I just shuddered imagining how a Manc accent would look written out, lol. (EDIT to clarify: Not that there's anything wrong with the accent!! but the number of characteristics you could include if you really wanted to do it...)

[(Anonymous)]

I think a lot of writers who feel the need to spell out Lister's accent are quite often non-British and seem to feel the need to 'explain' how he sounds to others who may not be familiar with a Liverpool accent. For those in other countries, the only example of a British accent they hear in the media is usually Queen's English so may well have never heard anything like Lister's voice before.

I do think classism is a big part of it as well though. Writers who overemphasise Listers accent quite often dumb him down with it, or write him as less articulate than he actually is, which always irks me. I know Craig has been accused of being something of a class traitor, partly because of how his accent has changed (particularly over the past few years) and people think he's done it purposefully but he's always maintained that it's just the natural result of not having lived in Liverpool for years, which is understandable.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

(Felineranger? Is this you by any chance?)
Ooh, I hadn't considered the non-British writers angle. That's really insightful.

I haven't personally come across fics that dumb Lister down, but I can definitely believe they exist, although I'd hate to think that anyone does it deliberately :( And it's awful that people level accusations like that at Craig...when you live and work pretty much only with people who don't have your accent, you're bound to lose some of it. That said, he probably does go to the occasional *looks around furtively* wine bar now ;)

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

Wash your mouth out!!! ;-)

(yes, that was me. I'm terrible at remembering to sign in when I comment).

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Precisely - people pick up the accents of those around them and it can work the other way too with upper-class people becoming more down-to-earth in the way they speak. I'm sure Craig's accent returns when he visits his relatives.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I think one has to remember that Lister's character changes extensively over the course of the series. I think the character started out as being much more one-dimensional. There are things that Lister says and does in later series that are really hard to imagine Lister from series 1-2 saying. Think of Lister's bits with Kochanski near the end of Back to Earth. That Lister is quite a contrast from the early Lister with his unrequited crush on a Kochanski who he barely knew.

While I don't think the character was ever meant to be truly "dumb", he did start out as quite a slacker, who almost deliberately seemed to want to not bother with any thing that might be considered "learning". The whole, "I've never read... a book." line comes to mind. Him and Rimmer were clearly meant to be sort of an Odd Couple in space at the start. One messy, the other anal, one a slacker, the other obsessed with becoming an officer, etc.

I think you make a fair point, but I can certainly see where someone might dumb down Lister a bit without being classist, especially if someone is specifically writing a younger version of Lister. As much as I love Lister and how much more well-rounded he became as the show progressed, we can't entirely forget his roots. After all, it wasn't one of the greatest minds of our time who brought us the "Om" song. ;)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I believe you said you don't have the DVDs yet? Because they address this on the Series 1 doc on "The Bodysnatcher Collection" (which unfortunately is hard to get hold of now). Doug and Rob originally conceived Lister as a middle-aged, brain-fried drug casualty of the hippy variety. Craig was cast because of his charm - Doug specifically says that's what won them over. ;)

The writing in "The End" was still for the original conception of the character and lines such as "Would you put the cat back together again?" are hard for someone like Craig - "a sharp twentysomething scally" - to make believable. Quotes are from the doc and commentaries.

Later eps like "Justice" and "The Inquisitor" make it clear that Lister knows he has "brains he's never used" and we see him develop and defeat the Inquisitor and various other foes.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Unintentionally and completely unconsciously, I picked up a lilt to my speech when I was in the UK last year. Not so much in Scotland since we were only there two days, but once past London into Bath, Warwick, Liverpool and Birmingham, I sort of heard myself pick up on speech patterns and imitate them. In Liverpool, though, it was easier to slip into, because I grew up watching and listening to the Beatles. Our Red Dwarf friend sunny_bexter was surprised I could tell that the four lads sounded different, I assume because other Americans don't tend to try to tell the difference. I even practiced correctly pronouncing "chuck" as in "you know damn well sprouts make me chuck." :)

Most Americans I've met tend to lump the accents all together and don't realize that they're just as different as a South County vs. North County vs. West County St Louis accent, and that's in one city. The only reason I know there's a difference is because I watch a lot of different British television, and I was exposed to it early on. Having Lister sound like John (I think he sounds more like John, at least to my younger ears), had me hooked.

I have noticed Craig sounds different in Corrie, but he's still markedly different than the Manchester accents (I assume that's what most of the actors are? Carla has a very distinct accent that sounds harsher to me). I like how Lloyd calls all the ladies 'babe' but Owen says 'love'. I don't know if that's a preference or a regional thing or how the writing just is.

And since I just wrote a Corrie ficlet, Lloyd's speech pattern is slightly different than Lister's, though he's still a Scouse at heart :) It's odd to hear him say 'my' and other characters say 'me' when early Lister used 'me' all the time. When Craig's emotional, 'me' will slip out (in BTE I noticed his changed speech patterns and when he said 'you wasn't even there' it was very much a gutteral reaction and a throwback to early Lister for me).

Writing is all in the listening.

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

I don't know if the 'babe' thing comes from the writers or is just Craig - it does seem to be his automatic term of endearment for females of all ages. As with 'me' and 'my', I've also noticed that he hardly ever says 'man' anymore - it only tends to pop out when he's emotional or excited - which used to be a defining element of his speech. He seems to use 'mate' a lot more frequently now instead. I don't know whether that's more of a Manchester thing that he's picked up, but overall his accent is still pretty scouse :-)
Carla I think has more of a Lancashire edge to her accent - maybe even a touch of Yorkshire. As a soft middle-class southerner it's hard to pinpoint it with real accuracy...

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

He also calls women "Darling". Well, he called me that at DJ, anyway. *Blushes at memory* ;)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Oh so jealous. :)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

Now I'm glad I posted this because what a lot of interesting comments and observations!

The whole classism thing never occurred to me before, but it's quite a fair point.

Also a very fair point to bring up how Lister's accent changed throughout the show too. I've started Red Dwarf over from the beginning again and Craig certainly plays him a bit differently in those early episodes. Series 1-2 Lister is sort of soft and fuzzy compared to later Listers.

I hadn't put too much phonetic dialogue in the story, but it was sprinkled here and there. I think I'm going to delete most of it and use it very smatteringly (That's not a word? too bad, I like the sound of it.) when I think it seems appropriate.

This fic grew from the tiniest little idea but it's turning into something of a monster. When I came up with the idea I never realized it was going to wind up being this long and difficult to write. These characters have completely invaded my brain though and I can't turn them out. Hopefully I can bring the whole thing to some sort of conclusion soon. :)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

Characters are evil. I had to forcibly eject them from my brain in order to focus on my sister's wedding and trip to Vegas, but now that that's done, I picked at the little Lloyd story to slowly get the brain back into characterization mode. I'm not ready to tackle the mess that has become Heroics part 2 and 3, but I have a feeling that in the back of my subconscious, the lads were working on fixing an ending for me.

I think sprinkled phonetic dialog is okay. As long as it sounds natural when you read it aloud, then it's perfectly fine. That's how I get around a lot of clunky dialog I'm stuck on - read it aloud and if you stumble over it, it's not right. :)