Question

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

This is for anyone who writes fic - how do you feel about constructive criticism?  I mean anything from politely pointing out typos or grammar mistakes to more ambiguous stuff like Brit-picking (you might feel, for example, that a British character could plausibly use an American expression in the context you've used it in).  Or in the case of the particular instance I'm thinking of, where a character uses a French expression which, while perfectly correct, doesn't feel right to you because of your knowledge of the specific instances where French speakers use "tu" and "vous".

The reason I ask is because I really don't want to come across as patronising and I know my language abilities aren't unusual when measured against everyone else here.  So if there's anyone here whose response to this would be: "I don't need a beta, thanks" or "I already have one", it would be helpful to know just so I avoid putting my foot in it. :)

Comments

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If I've done something incorrectly, I'd rather know about it sooner than later. But I work in a business where people readily tell you when they find mistakes in your writing, so I think it's an individual opinion. Not everybody wants to hear it. But as long as you aren't rude about telling them, I think you have a 95 percent chance of being appreciated for it.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That's encouraging to read, but as you say I think your profession probably influences your opinion. It must be almost second nature to you. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I'm not corrected as much as you might think, but that's because I'm super-paranoid after years of this - it doesn't take many baps on the nose to get me to change how I approach using words I don't know, assuming definitions or sources, etc.

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

Hee. I once read a super filthy smutfic in which one of the characters begged the other to bring him off...using vous. I mean I'm aware that some couples do vouvoie each other as a matter of course, but it was disconcerting in the context.

Anyway, I would hope that if someone already had a beta, they would give credit somewhere. If not, I imagine most people (including me) would be at least willing to discuss the types of issues you mentioned — maybe consider why they chose to use a certain expression and whether it could be replaced — as long as you don't approach it in a shaming or overly didactic way (not saying you would!).

At the same time, some people just write in their own dialects without trying to achieve 100% Britishness (or whatever it is), which is okay. There's probably a point at which you can't address everything.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That's interesting because the example you cite is similar to what prompted this post, although I've wanted to ask this general question for a while. To anyone who thinks the following example is overly picky, you may be right. I just wanted to discuss this issue generally.

It's the expression "Tout ce que vous desirez, et plus" in "Lessons In Heroics". It just suddenly struck me how odd it sounds to a Francophone (I'm not a native speaker, but I do have a joint BA in English and French) for the Emperor to address Lister that way. I know it's part of a running theme, but considering he's (a) a brutal tyrant (b) in an obsessive sexual relationship with Lister and (c) the Dom to Lister's sub, for him to call him "vous" even as part of a ritual just sounds odd to my ears. Although I tried the phrase with "tu" on a translation site and it didn't seem to like it, so I'm not saying I'm necessarily right.

Kronette does have a beta but I don't know if she speaks French. My French is unfortunately rusty but the distinction between "tu" and "vous" is one of the things that has stuck with me over the years.

Obviously this only matters if it bothers Kronette - it's not as though that many French speakers read RD fic. I can think of several ways to explain this away, such as the simple and true statement: "He's insane!". ;)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

That's funny, because I actually asked you about the French phrase, and 'vous' was never in question, just 'quelque' rather than 'tout ce'.

As for my beta, she's only helping me with the lifestyle issues in Lessons, since I'm not in the scene and she's familiar with it. She's also pointing out odd phrasing that catches her eye, but for the most part, I haven't used a true 'beta' in over a decade. I edit my own shit and I'll gladly own it, mistakes and all. Having said that...never, ever call me out in public on something I've messed up. Not only is it embarrassing, the 'mistake' may have been deliberate on my part and having to explain that may get into other major issues.

I had a commenter mention that I'd made a posting error on another story, and I had no idea I'd posted several paragraphs twice. The story had been up a year and no one bothered to let me know. With AO3, there's no way to contact someone directly, which is the one aspect of it I don't like, but at least I was able to fix the story so it's correct now. I've been an editor for zines and it's always touchy pointing out things to an author, because I don't know their style and I don't know their reasons for their word choices or sentence structure. Just pointing out that it was confusing is usually enough to get the author to look back over their work, but even then, it's still their choice if they want to change it or not.

Some of us writers comb over our stories again and again, trying to catch every little mistake and wrong word, but sometimes they slip through. (I just found 'had' instead of 'hand' in a WIP). I've made little fixes to a ton of my posted stories, because I found a misspelled/wrong word, or the spacing was messed up, or whatever. Also, I agree with daasgrrl's #2 wholeheartedly.

Guess I should ask some Spanish speaking persons to review my little bit of dialogue I've got going on, eh?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly apologise if I've offended you. I guess I thought since you didn't comment on the other thread I made that you weren't bothered about having your WIP discussed. :o

Yes, I remember you asking me about the French phrase. Since you obviously couldn't give context as it would have given away too much, I didn't ask who was addressing whom, so the "tu" or "vous" question didn't come up.

It did occur to me that you might have reasons for deliberately choosing a jarring phrasing and obviously I didn't expect you to get into them.

Again, I'm sorry. I should have private messaged you. I'll shut up now. :o

[kronette.livejournal.com]

I didn't comment on the other thread because it isn't my business what anyone wants to interpret about my stories. The reader brings their own baggage, experiences, ideas, etc to my story and everyone can get a different slant on the story that way. I didn't really read it so I don't know if that's actually what it was about, or if it was more more generalized than that.

I'm not offended, more just curious why this had to be a post with an example to my misinterpretation of French nouns (verbs?), rather than stay a generalized 'how do writers feel about concrit' which is a legitimate question.

I don't know the difference in the French phrases, honestly. Not a smegging clue. If one is more right, then I'll change it, but it should be on the same level as Lister's "anything you desire, and more", as I saw them as equals in that scene. If anyone has opinions on that, PM me.

And I guess if anyone speaks Spanish, I could use some assistance there, too. I only use one word here and there as endearments, though I may have the gender wrong. I used forum boards for research there, so those should be right.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Basically that scene just popped into my head earlier and I thought I might as well make a thread about general attitudes to concrit as I've been meaning to for a while. I wasn't intending to get into detail about your fic but when I read RoseCathy's comment (not blaming her in the slightest, it's all on me) I had a brain fart. :o

I'm aware how ironic it is that I started a thread about how to offer concrit and messed up. We live and learn, I suppose.

I'll sleep on it and PM you tomorrow about the exact circumstances in which French speakers use "tu" and "vous" (as I understand them) and what you choose to do with that is obviously up to you. :)

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

I'm quite happy to receive constructive criticism:

1. preferably in private
2. if the person knows what they're talking about - not talking about you, but I LOATHE being 'corrected' on things where I am demonstrably right in the first place, and the person would have discovered this if they'd only google/research/not talk out of their arse before trying to correct others. Yes, I have issues *cough*
3. all that said, I personally would be very reluctant to GIVE unasked-for constructive criticism, because most of the time I very much doubt it'd be appreciated

:)

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

That's the kind of reaction I was worried about. ;) On the rare occasions I've ventured to offer it, I have asked first if the person's happy to receive it.

I also need to be pretty bothered by something before I mention it, precisely because I don't want to irritate people. Examples include glaring typos which spoil the meaning of a sentence, British characters using American phrases where it doesn't seem reasonable that they could have adopted them e.g. Rimmer or Lister using the word "sidewalk" instead of "pavement" and the French usage of "tu" and "vous" as detailed above.

This cuts both ways, of course. If someone offered me constructive criticism I'd listen and take it on board if I thought it was justified. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

So in other words, nobody should ever tell you if they find anything they think is wrong in one of your stories. ;-)

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's not true! I've been given concrit before... and usually it's been helpful ;P

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

ALL THE THINGS GIVE ME ALL THE THINGS ALWAYS CONCRIT NOM. *ahem*

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Oh good, I'm glad someone likes the idea that much. ;)

[missflibble.livejournal.com]

I agree. As long as it's done in private and is indeed constructive. For a finale of one of my Ace fics, somebody commented "Is that it? I guess I was expecting more." ...which isn't particularly helpful! But I remember getting concrit re: my rambling sentence lengths. She was right! I now pay particular attention to that.

[derien.livejournal.com]

I love concrit when it's offered respectfully. I did have one person who volunteered as a beta, years back, berate me on at least ten different points in my story which she said were totally unlike the source material, and that character would never say that, when in fact I could find the pages in the source material where he did say exactly that phrase. And possibly that's why I haven't been writing as much, since then, not begging for concrit. ;) No, probably not. But I need all the help I can get, honestly, I can't turn it down.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The thing about any beta or proofreader on something you're writing is knowing what to use and what you can ignore (unless the editor is in charge of the final draft to publication, in which case you don't have much choice - and hopefully they're good enough that it doesn't matter). You get to a point after long enough that you read a correction and either say "they're right" or "they're wrong; or I've already considered that and I'm leaving it as is." With fanfic online, you are almost always in control of the final publication, so that can be an advantage ... so long as you don't get your feelings hurt by suggestions you decided not to take.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I am so green to all of this stuff and so woefully out of practice with writing that I would happily accept constructive criticism on any of my works. I'm sure a part of me will be a bit sad and mopey about it (because I've gotten such joy out of all of my writing so far and I'd hate to think that it might suck a bit), but I would consider it for my own good. I read some of the things that everyone else has written and I think, "Geez, I wish I was that good." I just keep hoping I'll get better at it. :D

I had a wonderful Beta reader for my long fic and I found it ridiculously helpful. She's not into the fandom though, so I'm reluctant to bother her for the smaller more smutty fics which I don't agonize over quite so much. Even with having a Beta reader for that fic, I went back to reread it a bit yesterday and I found some of it really... eh... not good, I think I should have spent a bit more time on it. I don't think I'm ever 100% happy with anything that I write though. Is anyone?

So yeah, having mistakes pointed out will probably smart a bit, but I'll sniffle a bit in the corner while I frantically fix the problem and be intensely grateful that someone pointed it out. ;)

I'm new though, so yeah, if I'd been doing this for years and doing it well, I'd probably have a much different attitude about it all. :)

[kronette.livejournal.com]

No, no one is ever 100% happy with what they right. When you get that one story, though, that you've reread and reread and you can't find a single thing that you'd change? Best feeling ever. :) It's rare, so treasure it!

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I agree that no-one's ever 100% happy with what they write. Sometime when I reread my fics I think "Oh no, I could have phrased that so much better!" or "Why did I use the same word twice so close together?" but I resist the temptation to edit them because if I started I wouldn't know when to stop.

When I'm writing I check over and over for mistakes before I post, but sometimes you're just too close to it and you need a fresh pair of eyes.

I think I'll bookmark this thread and refer to it whenever I'm pondering whether to offer concrit. It's been very interesting.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You will never truly know if you're happy with something you've written until you're reading it three years later and how you feel then.