Red Dwarf Slash

*pouts* No more? Are you sure? :p

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lala-sara.livejournal.com

Can I say something? It's just for me something was strange. If a society is tolerant so much for same-sex marriage why BDSM suddenly deems like dirty and perverted and, the main thing, associated with abuse and rape? I don't think even in our present society it is stigmatised so much. I can't think of the reason how it could happen. So I had some cognitive dissonance. I'm sorry. Everything else was very good, thank you.

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Hmmm...Personally I think there is still a great deal of stigma attached to S&M, particularly anything that goes beyond the kind of light bondage that most people will have experimented with (handcuffs, blindfolds etc). But to answer your question, I don't see it as being especially taboo in this AU. Rimmer is overly paranoid about being 'outed' but that's because he's Rimmer, and shame and paranoia come naturally to him. Neither of them really want their sex lives broadcast to the world (who does?) but the fact they're celebs means that if it gets out they'll be in for a lot of hassle. Even if people dont care, the media will. Would it affect the business? Maybe, maybe not. Would their kids be taken away? Doubtful. Would it cast doubt over their suitability as parents? Yes, to some people it certainly would. That may seem like an extreme point of view but bear in mind that in a murder case in the UK some years ago, the parents of a teenage girl were considered suspects simply on the basis that the police found bondage mags in their bedroom. Yes. They were suspected of having killed their own child because they engaged in consensual kink as a married couple.

So yeah, it may not be as big a deal as they're worried it would be. But it's a concern and it's something they would much rather avoid if at all possible. Does that help it make sense?

From:

lala-sara.livejournal.com

Well, the same goes *now* for same-sex couples. But the question was why if *there* (not now, I wasn't talking about our society, I was talking about society of future in your fic) is no indication that it's still going on for same-sex marriages it is still going on for BDSM. If your society got rid of that issue how it still in 20th century on that issue? It's pretty close and it comes from the same base sex question. How come then that there were never even slight disturbance in opinion about homosexuality (except Rimmer's family but even them seem have no real base in that opinion even on conservative Io) but still stigma about BDSM? I just don't think it's realistic. If society understood that consensual sex, however strange for some it could be, is normal, then it understood it in whole, not partly, you can't understand it partly, it's the principal. If not - there should be also hints on lingering prejudices for same-sex couple, too. These issues are clearly not equal here, it's not just Rimmer's paranoia. If it was like that and the issues were equal he wouldn't even consider marrying a man, too. So why he never gave even a slightest thought about that (despite conservatism of his upbringing) but BDSM is still a secret?

Edited Date: 2014-12-01 10:20 pm (UTC)

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Your argument is based on the assumption that just because society has moved forward in one respect with regards to sexuality that it will have automatically moved on in all respects, which I don't think necessarily holds true. Even today, in places where gay marriage is legal and there are high-profile same-sex couples, S&M generally remains something secretive and shameful, so your argument doesn't really hold up. Also, I'd like to point out that just because homosexuality is more widely accepted in this fic it doesn't mean they are living in a prejudice-free utopia where 'anything goes'. There are references in both this story and the first one that highlight that although homosexuality is less of an issue in this setting, it is still an issue. Lister is initially quick to deny any homosexual leaning and Rimmer initially won't publicly acknowledge ANY sexual interest at all. He only 'comes out' when he's already made the decision to marry Lister, so he knows it's all or nothing. It's not a decision he takes lightly.

I would also point out that even in today's society there are openly gay couples who are out and proud but probably still wouldn't want the exact details of their sex life made public - whether the details are kinky or boring. It's one thing to be open about who you're having sex with but something else entirely to be open about exactly how you like to have sex with them. So I don't think you can directly correlate the two things as 'if that's ok, then why not that?'. Society is full of illogical conflicting social constructs so why should the future be any different?

But if you want the short answer - because it's my story and I say so ;-)

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To use a modern example, there are plenty of people now who have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage, and accept BDSM at least to some degree, who still object to polyamory and/or poly marriage. She's right in that just because society accepts one thing in the bedroom doesn't mean they'll accept another.

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Really? You're sure you can resist the thought of immortal Lister and Rimmer engaging in BDSM ad infinitum? ;) No, I'm kidding.

To be honest, the thought of that is simultaneously arousing and terrifying.

This was wonderful. Further comment to follow. :)

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To be honest, I've got so wrapped up in this AU, I could probably go on writing about these two forever. But I have to draw the line somewhere, dammit!

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Yeah, I understand. I'm just so fascinated by what would happen next to them, how their relationship with their kids and everyone else would change, whether Lister really is essentially different now he's a hologram (physical changes aside), what happened to all the supporting characters who were so vividly drawn...

But if you're drawing the line, that's absolutely your prerogative. :)

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If you were ever to think a few years down the road about crossing that line, I wouldn't complain...;)

As weird as this sounds, it makes me happy that even you, the author, are wrapped up in this AU. I'm sure others would agree with me that these stories are so engaging not only due to the kinky porn (hnnngh), but also this complex world that you've built and all the characters you've developed and made us love.

Btw, I hadn't read the books (the Red Dwarf books, that is; not going to put myself through the Fifty Shades books) when I read the original FSOS, so I didn't know about any of the nods to a certain section of IWCD! It's fun to go back now to trace the parallels.

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Less useless comment, now that I've had time to re-read and think...***SPOILERS BELOW***

While the metaphysical difference between a human and their hologram was touched on in the first couple of episodes ("Lister, I'm not really here! I'm not really me! Don't you see? I'm a computer simulation of me"), it's not explored much later in the show. Lister's take on the situation (including the somewhat silly "Death isn't the handicap it used to be") is tacitly accepted as correct. The science gets fuzzy with regard to just how much knowledge a hologram has: It's shown in Me2 that Rimmer remembers everything up to and including his death, and that the double knows something of what happened before he was switched on ("Well, he did warn you"). I assume the fuzziness is for storyline purposes.

Your epilogue illustrates the difference more clearly than anything I've seen/read before. Lister's hologram remembers 99.9% of his life, but since the machine wasn't running at the final moment, he doesn't remember saying "I'll see you soon" (or the "Laters, baby" ;_;)...because the person who said it won't see Rimmer later. There's a little strand of heartbreakingness amid all the happiness of the ending.

~~But did Rimmer finally give in and let Lister top/take control once in awhile?? Inquiring minds want to know~~

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Yeah, he did (but not often) ;-)

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With regards to the hologram thing, I knew at the start of the story that I had to inject an element of real risk to it or the whole thing would feel empty. There's no tension if you can just kill the character off and bring them back with a snap of your fingers with no consequences (Lookin' at you here, Supernatural). It had to really matter whether Lister survived or not. At first I was just going to use the baby angle, he had to live if he wanted that child, but then I realised that was Rimmer's turning point in the story more than anything else. Rimmer's not certain he wants another child until he's faced with the possibility that the decision could be taken away. Besides, with all their resources etc they could always adopt or something. So I decided to pull apart the hologram thing in more detail to show why it's not just an instant solution and why Rimmer is as paranoid as he is despite having that apparent safety net there. Also, I don't think I put it in the story in the end, but making holograms of children is illegal in this AU. Hence why he's also so overprotective of the twins.

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For some reason the thought of a child hologram never occurred to me (odd as that might seem). I can entirely understand that because bestowing that on someone without the emotional maturity and life experience to cope with it would be a really bad idea. This isn't a great analogy, but it puts me in mind of the child vampire in "Interview With The Vampire". Even most of the other vampires think what Louis did was wrong and Claudia herself comes to hate him for it, if I remember rightly.

Obviously holograms are different to vampires. But now I have an irresistible image of Rimmer frogmarching Jim, Bexley and Genevieve to have their holograms recorded on their 18th birthdays. Possibly even before they've opened their presents. ;)

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Yes, I love that book and I had the spectre of Claudia lurking at the back of my mind too. It's kind of inverting the idea, isn't it? Claudia was a woman trapped in a child's body but a hologram would be permanently stuck mentally at whatever age they died, no matter how long they ended up existing. It's creepy, either way.

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Details I liked - Norah's surname turning out to be the same as the heroine of the original "50 Shades" - it seems appropriate given what we learn about her former relationship with Rimmer.

Petersen being just as interested in the contents of the mini-bar as the details of Rimmer and Lister's sex life. :D

Howard's pride in his films, summing up of the Rimmer family and awkwardness with Jim and Bexley.

Genevieve aka Viva.

Lister being recreated as he was when he first met Rimmer, complete with leathers - of course Rimmer would do that. ;)

I nearly cried at Lister's death, ideal though it was in the circumstances, because it made me think of my own mortality. But then this is a story so he can come back. And as I said before, the thought of what they'll get up to as hard-light holograms is both scary and arousing. :)

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I may be the only reader who wants to know what happened with Peterson and Petrovich and Howard in that 73 years. :-P

Also, very entertaining!

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No, I do too. :) But I suppose we'll have to guess. ;)

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Lol - I know what happened to just about everyone in the story. Tell me who else you want to know about and I'll post something.

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If I could throw my votes in: Taylor and Mrs Jones! And if you had anything in mind for the other Lister and Rimmer we met at the end of FSOS, I'd love to know.

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What RoseCathy said, plus Kochanski. Also, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I'm curious as to what careers the kids would have pursued - because there is no way Lister would have let them be idle.

And again, you don't have to answer, but I also wonder who would have chosen to come back as a hologram and who wouldn't.

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Oh, just pull a Rowling and epilogue the story. :-P~

As many of them as you'd like to mention, please and thank you.

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Write an epilogue to the epilogue you mean? :-)

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Yes, your heteronormative epilogue, like JK. :-P

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