An Ace discussion.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Nessa mentioned pulling this out into a new thread, and I think it's a dandy idea.

We see four Aces in Red Dwarf. We see DJ-Ace, who is supposed to be the original, or one very like the original. We see Emohawk-Ace, who is Rimmer with his negativity sucked away. We see Reformed!Ace, who is a Rimmer much like our Rimmer after some time as Ace. And, of course, we see our Rimmer as Ace.

Here are some of my rambling thoughts.

The first Ace was meant to be The Man, the Marty Stu to end all Stus. And like any good Stu/Sue, a lot of people find him to be a real pain in the ass. He's brave and heroic, but he's also self-centered, pompous, and pretty shallow.

The second Ace was our Ace without his negativity. It's important, for me, to note that this is Rimmer before the events of Rimmerworld and Out Of Time, which I think were events that fundamentally changed Rimmer. The Emohawk could suck away Rimmer's negativity, but it could not give him anything he didn't have - like a general respect for life and consideration for others. He was kind to Lister, yes, but he was pretty darn quick to jump onto the idea of killing the Cat without his knowledge.

The third Ace was, in many ways, the best of the lot. He was all heroic and shit, but he was also kinder and more understanding, both of Lister and of Rimmer. He didn't bowl Lister over; he befriended him. It's as if his time as a soft-light hologram, his humiliation, and the lousy things he did all gave him a past that tempered the whole Ace-ness, making him a better person than Ace was.

And, of course, our Ace. I like to speculate on what happens to him, but it's rarely good. The Ace who recruited him abandoned Lister, Kryten, and Cat to die, and was trying to atone for that. Our Rimmer got pushed into the Ace thing by Lister, and I can't help but think that will affect what kind of Ace he becomes, and how he passes on the role (hence the fic I'm writing).

Comment? Add? Disagree heavily?

Comments

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think he would conclude that Lister tricked him just to get rid of him, and knowing he would die fairly quickly. But I don't see Rimmer wanting to prove anything because of that, quite the contrary, I think he may decide to break the chain because of that. Why should I do something I don't see the purpose in, have been tricked into doing and is not in any way equipped for?
The question is of course what alternatives he will be able to find. But he has a fast dimension jumping ship, so anything is possible. Or maybe he will first decide he needs a nice quiet place to finish his training, and then end up there. But in any case, he will never be the old Rimmer again, so he may actually now find people who would like and respect him even without being Ace. And then who needs the Starbuggers?
Although I of course think he will always be missing Lister, no matter how betrayed he feels ::sniffle::

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Rimmer does have a tendancy, though, to become trapped in others' expectations, even when they're gone, even when they're long-dead...

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Rimmer HAD this tendency. I am not so sure season VII Rimmer is like that any more. He did that because he really didn't have any expectations of his own. I think season VII Rimmer has developed some new ideas on how his life (read death) should be like and some new expectations of himself too.

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

The other option that occurred to me is that he plays Ace in his own way - I can imagine our Rimmer turning Ace into a completely ruthless bastard to achieve what he thinks is right, without sacrificing his sense of self-preservation.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think that if he elects to be Rimmer, he would not do so to prove anything. I think he is past all that, and even the changed Rimmer don't understand the "saving the world" thing. I can not imagine him so suddenly throwing all caution to the wind like that.
Of course my main trouble with the whole thing is that I can't see how ruining a light bee can "kill" a hologram. Ok, so there is certain lack of hard light bees, but he can always be soft light while hanging around. Our Rimmer seems to change from hard to soft when he likes.
And if these hard-light Rimmers had gotten the light bee like ours did, they would know exactly where to go for a few spares. Why waste a fully traind Ace Rimmer and go for an uncertain chance of finding a new one, when all you need is a new bee? Every Rimmer should get the chance to die alone?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Yikes, this thread is aliiiive!

I think the idea is that the entire personality, everything that is Rimmer, is stored in the light bee, and it changes and grows as he does (pre-light-bee, Holly stored it, but for III on, everything seems to be contained in the bee - which is what allows him to be free of Red Dwarf and Starbug). So damaging the circuitry that encodes who he is would be 'killing' him. You could restore him from a backup on Red Dwarf, perhaps, or the backup in Psirens, but that wouldn't be our Rimmer any more than VIII-Rimmer was (I think they like to drive that point home - Me Squared, Rimmerworld, VIII...).

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Its alive because it is all over the place ;-)
But you must assume all that stuff is loaded on the light bee, and as long as it is still working, one should be able to download it to a computer?
kahvi had that in that follow-up to your fic - that they had constantly kept back-ups of Listers brain so they could create a hologram of him. They must be able to keep back-up of the light bee? Ace should be able to do that on his ship, it must have fairly sophisticated computer equipment.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

True that. I'll have to ponder on a way to reconcile RD continuity (love that stuff) with Rimmer's mortality. Maybe the bee has limited interface capabilities, so it's not easy to do. Maybe the process is so complex and trouble-prone (we're talking about downloading an entire human brain, after all) that each go at it has the potential for some pretty grody transcription errors. I like that one, actually. Maybe a fic where we meet a hologram who decided to become immortal by constantly updating himself, and by now (s)he's quite mad? Ach, they put that Psirens gag up for yuks, but it does mess with things. There was no reason for him to be downloaded from the computer, as his bee had been sitting happily in the freezer, and it brings up just what you said. Maybe the 'download' was just a systems check, and Kryten didn't understand it fully?

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Now I am confused. Freezer in Psirens? Do you mean the mad holodoctor? One can wonder why the doctor didnt just power herself off instead of freezing herself down.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Series opener of VI, when Lister's in deep sleep and Rimmer's in the cooler...

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's right. Seems strange, but maybe it was a way to save energy? Like why the Holodoctor was in the freezer. And his personality was clearly downloaded from the computer.
Do you know what really tickles me with this episode? Lister is seeing himself realistically, he is a slob, he has no taste, he cant play the guitar... and Rimmer is his best friend! The fact is, Lister dear, he is, you just don't want to see it like you don't want to see that you cant play the guitar.

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

Maybe freezing the light-bee would in some way put the data stored in the light-bee's memory at risk, so they downloaded him into the computer first. I mean, that bee had been clearly frozen in some kind of liquid, and I doubt that the chip would have been designed for that. Although why they did it like that and not simply frozen the bee without the extras is beyond me.

Actually, that's an interesting thought. If downloading from a light bee is somehow a much more error-prone operation than downloading from a human brain, then how much of Rimmer's personality shifts can be attributed to his previous experiences, and how much can be attributed to errors in the download? And what haven't they told us...?

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

And then who needs the Starbuggers?
I'd like to think he does. Well; Lister at any rate. Lister has, in a way, always tried to be on Rimmer's side.

No, stop looking at me like that, let me explain! ;)

Yes, Lister can't stand him, or at least he couldn't stand him during most of the time they spent together. But the thing about Lister is that he can't stop believing there is something good in everyone, which is why he constantly tries to change Rimmer, or look for (what he deems to be) good qualities in him. Who always insists on going in/back to save Rimmer, no matter how much of a mess he's made, or what he has done? Consider Rimmer's trial; there is truth in Lister's statement that he IS the person closest to Rimmer.

So yes, Rimmer could find someone who liked and respected him, but it is easy to respect and like Ace. Lister, on the other hand (with the exception of Nirvanah Crane) is the only person who at least TRIED to like and respect him as RIMMER. Not even his own family managed that.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

You misunderstand me here, I mean people who will like and respect him as Rimmer, not as Ace. Rimmer in VII is a lot changed and this is probably a process that goes on, and this person will be easier to like even if he is still in many ways the old sceptical, sarcastic Rimmer.
Lister tried to like him because Lister tries to like everyone. And he goes after Rimmer because he sees himself as the kind of person who don't leave crew members behind, no matter how much he dislike them. And Rimmer knows this. Lister has used every opportunity to say that he doesn't like him and doesn't think he is a friend, which he also did at the trial. So even if he did start to like the Rimmer that was emerging, it is very doubtful that Rimmer realised that, especially remembering Terrorform.
As I said somewhere else, Rimmer reacts to personal interest in himself, like he did with Nirvanah. Loyalty to a crew for the sake of it and other lofty ideas is not his thing. What drives various Rimmers to be Ace are other things, I believe.
So if Rimmer leave behind people who only looked after him because it was their duty, and find people who likes him as a person instead - wouldn't that be an easy choice?

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

It may have started as a duty; I wholeheartedly agree with you there. And yes; he goes after Rimmer because it is The Right Thing To Do. Part of my point was, however, that with Rimmer, following those ideals (which is what they are) must be particularly difficult. But Lister does so anyway. And he may be the only person (again, apart from Nirvanah) who has actually gritted his teeth and done so. I don't mean to say that this nessecarily implies Lister has any particular affinity for Rimmer. As you say, he spesifically states that he does not. Rather, I feel it says something about Lister's integrity and resolve, and it might be a unique occurance in Rimmer's life. If he aknowledges that or not is a different matter, of course.

I phrased myself badly, perhaps. Yes, it is obviously easy to like Ace. But as you say, these people would come to know and like - perhaps even love - him as Rimmer; not Ace the hero. But the Rimmer they come to know will be different from the one who left (or was forced to leave) Lister. This Rimmer is easier to like. And not that one can, or perhaps should, put a value on affection, there is a pure, visceral reaction in me that says Lister would be better for him, and knows him better.

Heh, I'm bad at explaining myself. I mainly think in terms of feelings, and this is a good exersise in trying to explain those feelings in words. I'm not sure I've managed to get across what I mean entirely, but it's close enough, I think. :)

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Let me just say that I don't mean to be negative about Lister, it is just the difference between them. Lister believes in the good in everyone and other lofty ideas, Rimmer is a cynic which is in 99 of 100 cases a cover for an emotional and sensitive nature, easy to hurt and quick to retaliate. I think this becomes clearer through the series.
The difference with Nirvanah is that she didn't grit her teeth, she really liked him. That brought out the hero in him, as well as the cynic to cover things :-)
I don't think Rimmer can appreciate Listers resolve and grit here - he would never do that himself. The only thing that would impress him is if what happened in Terrorform was real affection, when it wasn't he withdrew behind the cynic again.
I think he starts out as someone who is looking for nobody's affection and ends of as someone who does, which is another reason why he will probably find it. And I think he was already changed enough for that when he left Lister - or he wouldn't have left.
We can really discuss this endlessly, right ;-) And of course we all know they are perfect for each other - too bad Lister only realise it in his subconcious and too late :-(

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

And I think he was already changed enough for that when he left Lister - or he wouldn't have left.
He didn't have much of a choice, though. Lister forced his hand, and IMO it would have taken a much stronger man than who Rimmer was at the time to go against that. I do agree that he changed though; roadstergal has often commented on the fact that the two of them seem to be getting closer and then - BAM - along comes SMAC. And I have some further on this, but I'm gonna put them in a comment below where they fit better. ;)