An Ace discussion.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Nessa mentioned pulling this out into a new thread, and I think it's a dandy idea.

We see four Aces in Red Dwarf. We see DJ-Ace, who is supposed to be the original, or one very like the original. We see Emohawk-Ace, who is Rimmer with his negativity sucked away. We see Reformed!Ace, who is a Rimmer much like our Rimmer after some time as Ace. And, of course, we see our Rimmer as Ace.

Here are some of my rambling thoughts.

The first Ace was meant to be The Man, the Marty Stu to end all Stus. And like any good Stu/Sue, a lot of people find him to be a real pain in the ass. He's brave and heroic, but he's also self-centered, pompous, and pretty shallow.

The second Ace was our Ace without his negativity. It's important, for me, to note that this is Rimmer before the events of Rimmerworld and Out Of Time, which I think were events that fundamentally changed Rimmer. The Emohawk could suck away Rimmer's negativity, but it could not give him anything he didn't have - like a general respect for life and consideration for others. He was kind to Lister, yes, but he was pretty darn quick to jump onto the idea of killing the Cat without his knowledge.

The third Ace was, in many ways, the best of the lot. He was all heroic and shit, but he was also kinder and more understanding, both of Lister and of Rimmer. He didn't bowl Lister over; he befriended him. It's as if his time as a soft-light hologram, his humiliation, and the lousy things he did all gave him a past that tempered the whole Ace-ness, making him a better person than Ace was.

And, of course, our Ace. I like to speculate on what happens to him, but it's rarely good. The Ace who recruited him abandoned Lister, Kryten, and Cat to die, and was trying to atone for that. Our Rimmer got pushed into the Ace thing by Lister, and I can't help but think that will affect what kind of Ace he becomes, and how he passes on the role (hence the fic I'm writing).

Comment? Add? Disagree heavily?

Comments

[kirke-novak.livejournal.com]

Of all the shit that happened to Rimmer over the years Ace Rimmer had to be the Dump Of The Lifetime. Human life is filled with regrets. What if I said 'yes' when that guy asked me out, what if I studied art like I wanted not medicine like my parents wanted me to, what if... what if... what if... but, to be honest, except for some minor cases, we don't really have those 'what ifs' thrown into our faces like that. Rimmer saw his 'what if' and it was PERFECT... Things like that should not happen to people, it's too cruel :/

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

I actually think it's less that Ace is so Aceish, and more that the other three like Ace so much. I mean, Ace is far from perfect himself.

[kirke-novak.livejournal.com]

Of course he's far from perfect, yet other people look at him the way Rimmer always wanted to be looked upon and that's what hurts him the most.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think that's what gets him. Not what Ace is, himself, but just what he represents - the acceptance and respect Rimmer never could earn.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

I get a feeling there is a stuff here that is from the books - I can for example not remember some of the thing you say about the third Ace from the series?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry. No, I didn't pull in anything from the books - Backwards!Ace is a different fellow from the rest - but there's a deleted scene in SMAC where the Ace who visits the 'Bug tells Lister how he came to be Ace. I think it's a shame it was trimmed - it fits the differences between that Ace and the previous one perfectly, IMO.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Is this on the DVDs? Eeeek, how did I miss that? Need to do research...

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

I love doing this kind of research. :) It's in the deleted scenes.

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

I mostly agree with that, though I don't dislike the first Ace as much as some. He should be insufferable, but to me he just isn't. Must be mr. Barrie. Also everyone has faults - he managed to overcome many that settled in Rimmer, but he acquaired others - or rather aspects of his character developed differently.
I really fear for Rimmer's fate as Ace. It does not bode well (could just be my pessimism talking though), although I've never thought that how he came to be Ace would affect it. It's an interesting idea.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, it's hard to stop the Barrie Charm Monster. ;) Yep, I feel like Rimmer's past defines his development every bit as much as his choices do. There's a can't-escepe feel to Red Dwarf, like Lister with his parentage...

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

ESCAPE. I can spel gud.

[day221b.livejournal.com]

I agree. The best Ace seen in action would have to be the third Ace. And he appears to be a lot more rounded as a character just as you said.

The scariest part for me is that each Ace seems to be missing a very necessary part of themselves and that's a lack of any sense of self preservation. Any heroic character should have some sense of mortality about themselves for the feats they perform to be considered heroic. At least Ace's type of heroism, that is.

While my speculations tend to be negative on what happens to Rimmer after SMAC, I do feel a little hope that our Ace will be different just because he does have that sense of self preservation. Maybe that will make him think things through before jumping head first into danger like the others. Plus, as you said, I feel the events of Out of Time, did change Rimmer. When he lost the crew... wow! That was powerful stuff.

And even though nobody on Red Dwarf has that knowledge of what he tried to do besides Rimmer, himself, it was still pretty darn heroic not to mention fast-thinking.

Perhaps our Ace really will break the chain.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that's a very interesting point about self-preservation. Yes, I think there's a difference between facing fear and not having it at all.

But another thing - for Ace, it seems like there's no absolute that's driving him. The Better Good Of The Universe is pretty ambiguous. Each of the girls he rescues is just another girl. What's really driving him? For the Thrid Rimmer, we have an answer (even if they only put it in the DVD - bastiges). And that brings up what it would be for our Rimmer. I've played, in fics, with the idea that it's some right to return to the 'Bug, as a hero rather than as a prodigal son.

[day221b.livejournal.com]

And that brings up what it would be for our Rimmer. I've played, in fics, with the idea that it's some right to return to the 'Bug, as a hero rather than as a prodigal son.

Which I've enjoyed. In the first series, he said he thought of himself as a goodie, even when his actions tended not to be so good. I really don't know what his driving force was...except that Lister tricked/urged him. Hmm. It makes me think that he would want to return one day, to go home, but yeah as I one of your fics illustrated, I don't think he would, at least not alive anyway. I don't think its as much pride, as the hatred of the failure inside himself that wouldn't let Rimmer go home.

I do know that he really did seem to "get it" in the first ep of Series VII. That JFK was both a good man and a bad man. Where Lister was trying to categorize him as either good or bad, Rimmer saw both and accepted it. Seems there's hope yet.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, he's really the voice of reason in Tikka; I like Tikka for that reason. It really shows how RW/OOT changed him.

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

I think that our Rimmer would have to find his motivation for constantly saving the universe during his initial stages as Ace. If he doesn't find one, I can easily see him either being the final link in the chain, or searching for a Rimmer who *already* has some kind of motivation for endlessly saving the universe.

I don't think that the initial motivation for him leaving would be good enough for him to keep it up. I mean, does the universe *really* need an Ace? What would happen if there wasn't always one there?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, that's something I've struggled with. SMAC-Ace says that the universe needs someone to be handsome and magnificent, but why? You sacrifice a lot to be that person, for no good reason that I can see. But I think it's more a matter of what's keeping him away from Starbug than what's making him Ace. Pride (in layers that rival a torte) will keep him away once he's made the step, and if he's not on Starbug, he pretty much has to be Ace.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

I thought it was really interesting that our Rimmer without his inhibitions was so ruthless about doing what he thought was right, clearly not considering that he might in any way be wrong. It was like Rimmer with the waxdroids, only so charismatic and seemingly selfless that people never thought of criticising him. A most scary thought to let somebody like that loose on the universe.
But the guy we see in OOT is not like that. He is just as disgusted as Lister at the callousness of their future self, to the extent that the coward Rimmer has found something he is willing to die for and that is not becoming like that, despite the perks.
So the guy who goes off to be Ace is no longer careless about other peoples life and has come to a point where he has found that there is things that are worse than dying. But his sense of self-preservation seems to be there in full force, he proves that in the first episode of the season. There are clearly still limits to what he would put his life down for.
So Rimmer now has this ship of his own, presumably with the most advanced technology ever, and the vaguest mandate possible: to be Ace Rimmer. What would he do? And what will he do when he realises he has been tricked into something he is clearly not up to?

[day221b.livejournal.com]

A most scary thought to let somebody like that loose on the universe.

That is scary. I hadn't thought of that...but you're right. He did change, whereas his future self seemed to have reverted. Hmm. Weird. But I thought everybody's future self was just too fantastic.

What would he do? And what will he do when he realises he has been tricked into something he is clearly not up to?

That's a very good question. I guess it might depend on why Rimmer thinks Lister tricked him. Him being Rimmer, I'm sure he'll take the most negative and believe that Lister wanted to be rid of him. So either bitter to the last or I could see him pushing himself and using the thought of Lister looking down on and thinking ill of him to fight against when cowardice tried to get the better of him. If that's the case, then isn't that what the first Ace did? Pushed himself harder when others made fun of him for being held back a year?

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

Rimmer without his inhibitions was so ruthless about doing what he thought was right

Mmm, I don't know about that. He did tell the Cat about his plan, and while the Cat was in no condition to react accordinly, neither was Rimmer. More to the point we can see in the deleted scenes that he couldn't actually do it.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I do feel a little hope that our Ace will be different just because he does have that sense of self preservation.
Yes indeed! And frankly, I think he'd want to stay alive just to show that he could, because he knows people would expect him to fail.

That's another thing though; Lister quite obviously thought that Rimmer had it in him to succeed. He DID believe in him. But did Rimmer pick up on that? You'd think he would, but based on my experience of the man, I'd say he'd be just as likely not to.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

As a slasher I would like to think he believes in Rimmer. But is there really any sign of it? He does his level best to discourage the other Ace from recruiting him by expanding on how useless Rimmer is. He only tries to help out because Ace believe that every Rimmer can be Ace, not because he thinks so himself. Of course he should believe it, he has seen what Rimmer can do without his hang-ups removed, but obviously he has little belief in Rimmer achieving that without Emohawk assistance.
But I actually thinks Rimmer does believe that Lister believes in him. The whole scene where they are talking at the rail indicates that. He wants to believe it, because he is no longer the git who don't care what people thinks of him.
But when he figures out he has been tricked, it will be Terrorform all over again.

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

I think that the point of the original Ace was that he was the polar opposite of Rimmer. He was the stereotypical Hero of Days Gone By, which was what Rimmer thought he had to be when they first met. Since then, events have tempered his ideals somewhat, and possibly changed his ideas about what a hero is supposed to be like. In a way, the original Ace makes me think of all the male chauvanists that were heroes before feminism reared its head again.

Given that the crew have been in deep space for far too long, without any human (or even humanoid) female company (Holly doesn't count, being a computer), I wonder how much of that would have been knocked out of our Rimmer?

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

In a way, the original Ace makes me think of all the male chauvanists that were heroes before feminism reared its head again.
And amen to that... My idea is that this is written by men, and Ace is a type of man that men admires and think women admire, while women would just as easily go for the insecure git, who would need them.
Given that the crew have been in deep space for far too long, without any human (or even humanoid) female company (Holly doesn't count, being a computer), I wonder how much of that would have been knocked out of our Rimmer?
Lister berated Rimmer for his male chauvinist attitudes, but that appeared to me like mostly coming from uncertainty and lack of experience - macho is easy to hide behind. He was certainly not like that when he met someone who really liked him (Nirvanah).

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

*nods* Good point. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, much of it was also caused by Dear Old Mother. In the few shots we see of her, she looked very much like a stereotypical pre-feminist housewife (and child!Arnold was also dressed in that kind of outfit...). It's almost as if the whole feminist revolution just passed them by, somehow.