An Ace discussion.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Nessa mentioned pulling this out into a new thread, and I think it's a dandy idea.

We see four Aces in Red Dwarf. We see DJ-Ace, who is supposed to be the original, or one very like the original. We see Emohawk-Ace, who is Rimmer with his negativity sucked away. We see Reformed!Ace, who is a Rimmer much like our Rimmer after some time as Ace. And, of course, we see our Rimmer as Ace.

Here are some of my rambling thoughts.

The first Ace was meant to be The Man, the Marty Stu to end all Stus. And like any good Stu/Sue, a lot of people find him to be a real pain in the ass. He's brave and heroic, but he's also self-centered, pompous, and pretty shallow.

The second Ace was our Ace without his negativity. It's important, for me, to note that this is Rimmer before the events of Rimmerworld and Out Of Time, which I think were events that fundamentally changed Rimmer. The Emohawk could suck away Rimmer's negativity, but it could not give him anything he didn't have - like a general respect for life and consideration for others. He was kind to Lister, yes, but he was pretty darn quick to jump onto the idea of killing the Cat without his knowledge.

The third Ace was, in many ways, the best of the lot. He was all heroic and shit, but he was also kinder and more understanding, both of Lister and of Rimmer. He didn't bowl Lister over; he befriended him. It's as if his time as a soft-light hologram, his humiliation, and the lousy things he did all gave him a past that tempered the whole Ace-ness, making him a better person than Ace was.

And, of course, our Ace. I like to speculate on what happens to him, but it's rarely good. The Ace who recruited him abandoned Lister, Kryten, and Cat to die, and was trying to atone for that. Our Rimmer got pushed into the Ace thing by Lister, and I can't help but think that will affect what kind of Ace he becomes, and how he passes on the role (hence the fic I'm writing).

Comment? Add? Disagree heavily?

Comments

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Hm, I can not really see him gaining any trust in Rimmer. He sets the thing up, knowing that Rimmer would take the easy way and use the gun instead of fighting with swords. He trusted Rimmers self preservation instincts. He knew they existed all along. But being Ace requires the courage to jump into things rather than just defending himself when attacked.
Lister is sending Rimmer off to be heroic and fulfill his destiny - if he can. The fact that he sends him to his death can in his mind easily be glossed over by the first. After all Lister beliefs in heroism and fighting for the good of everyone. Afterwards he probably realises that his motives may not be so pure, not to mention that after all he was not so keen on Rimmer leaving as he thought.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

But he set it all up on the assumption that Rimmer would stand up for Lister and fight the knight, and not just say, "Oh, don't know the smegger - check the midsection, maybe?" That would have been the old-Rimmer 'out.' After all, Lister-as-knight made it clear that his quarrel was with Lister.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

I may have to rewatch again, but as I remember it the knight attacks him and leave him no choice but to defend himself.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

He could run, though. Running and/or hiding would be the usual Rimmerine reactions, but AFAIR he doesn't even try.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

According to the script at: http://www.reddwarf.nildram.co.uk/txt/stoke.html

KING'S KNIGHT I bid you good day, my lord. I come in search of the knave called 'Lister of Smeg'.

RIMMER

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According to the script at: http://www.reddwarf.nildram.co.uk/txt/stoke.html

KING'S KNIGHT I bid you good day, my lord. I come in search of the knave called 'Lister of Smeg'.

RIMMER <noticing the knight's large sword> Now wait a minute, old friend, let's just stay calm, shall we?

KING'S KNIGHT Are you one of his household?

RIMMER Errr, in a manner of speaking...

KING'S KNIGHT Then prepare to die! <Chivalrously , the knight tosses RIMMER a sword with which to defend himself. Unprepared, RIMMER catches it blade first and holds it awkwardly out in front of him. Without wasting any further time, the knight attacks RIMMER, and they begin to fight.

Seems to me like he had plenty of time to run...

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Heh - what she said.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Not without turning his back on a man with a very big sword who might be faster than him. And Listers idea was not to take the chance on him running by leaving him with to easy an out. It was to force him into fighting and hoping he would conclude that he actually could be Ace. Rimmer would fight for one thing always - self-preservation.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Rimmer would fight for one thing always - self-preservation.

But I think this really shows that it's no longer the case. Why didn't he just say, "No, I don't know Lister?" Worth a shot, after all! But he stands up for Lister.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

IIRC, he says he's looking for Lister of Smeg, and asks if Rimmer's of his household. He waits for Rimmer to answer that he is, and then tosses the sword at him and readies to attack. Plenty of room for Rimmer to run from it...

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Yes, Lister belives in heroes and fighting for the good of everyone, but if he has no faith in Rimmer, then what's the point in sending him out there? Wouldn't he do more harm than good? Plus, Lister hates senseless killing. If he sent Rimmer off to on a pointless mission, wouldn't he be guilty of a milder version what he chastises Rimmer for in "Meltdown"; namely sending someone off to die "heroically" in what will essentially be a futile exercise? You might argue that he thinks some form of Ace is better than none, but that would imply some form of faith in his abilities, no? A useless Ace would be less than pointless.

Don't get me wrong here; I'm not suggesting Lister thought Rimmer would save the universe single-handedly, nor even that he thought Rimmer would make a particularly good Ace. Just that he thought Rimmer had enough in him to make it through the rough spots and learn on his own. This doesn't nessecarily go against your Blue-revelation sugggestion either, as Lister could still get a flash of realization that what he was sending the man off on was far worse than he'd realized, because he hadn't thought the thing through. That would be very Lister; acting on impulse and cursing himself for it later.

Personally, I think Lister's motivation was a mixture of wanting (or so he thought) to get rid of Rimmer, wanting Rimmer to get to fulfill his dreams (maybe with some subconcious hopes that this might result in good karma for Lister, thus increasing his chances of finding Earth and getting Kochanski), wanting to Do The Right Thing, wanting to fulfill Ace's dying wish, and his own romantic notions of heroism.

All in all though, though I can see Rimmer not wanting to return, that screams "wrong" in all my senses. Not from a R/L fangirl point of view (though of course there's that too), but because it just seems so wrong that they would go through all that together, with Lister being a part of what makes Rimmer change, only to not get to enjoy that change together. Erm. If that made any sense. As I said in the other post; jetlagged. ;)

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

oh, yes, so wrong :-(
Write fic!

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Can do!

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

Maybe Lister thought that Rimmer's sense of self-preservation, when intact, would preserve him from the fate that the other Aces had faced. I mean, he's sending Rimmer out there without any sudden shifts in his personality. It seems to me that the Ace in SMAC was talking about prompting some kind of awakening in Rimmer that didn't actually take place.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that the Ace in SMAC was talking about prompting some kind of awakening in Rimmer that didn't actually take place.

This whole conversation has prompted a fic, I will just mention, and that quote fits in with it somewhat eerily. ;)