An Ace discussion.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Nessa mentioned pulling this out into a new thread, and I think it's a dandy idea.

We see four Aces in Red Dwarf. We see DJ-Ace, who is supposed to be the original, or one very like the original. We see Emohawk-Ace, who is Rimmer with his negativity sucked away. We see Reformed!Ace, who is a Rimmer much like our Rimmer after some time as Ace. And, of course, we see our Rimmer as Ace.

Here are some of my rambling thoughts.

The first Ace was meant to be The Man, the Marty Stu to end all Stus. And like any good Stu/Sue, a lot of people find him to be a real pain in the ass. He's brave and heroic, but he's also self-centered, pompous, and pretty shallow.

The second Ace was our Ace without his negativity. It's important, for me, to note that this is Rimmer before the events of Rimmerworld and Out Of Time, which I think were events that fundamentally changed Rimmer. The Emohawk could suck away Rimmer's negativity, but it could not give him anything he didn't have - like a general respect for life and consideration for others. He was kind to Lister, yes, but he was pretty darn quick to jump onto the idea of killing the Cat without his knowledge.

The third Ace was, in many ways, the best of the lot. He was all heroic and shit, but he was also kinder and more understanding, both of Lister and of Rimmer. He didn't bowl Lister over; he befriended him. It's as if his time as a soft-light hologram, his humiliation, and the lousy things he did all gave him a past that tempered the whole Ace-ness, making him a better person than Ace was.

And, of course, our Ace. I like to speculate on what happens to him, but it's rarely good. The Ace who recruited him abandoned Lister, Kryten, and Cat to die, and was trying to atone for that. Our Rimmer got pushed into the Ace thing by Lister, and I can't help but think that will affect what kind of Ace he becomes, and how he passes on the role (hence the fic I'm writing).

Comment? Add? Disagree heavily?

Comments

[day221b.livejournal.com]

I agree. The best Ace seen in action would have to be the third Ace. And he appears to be a lot more rounded as a character just as you said.

The scariest part for me is that each Ace seems to be missing a very necessary part of themselves and that's a lack of any sense of self preservation. Any heroic character should have some sense of mortality about themselves for the feats they perform to be considered heroic. At least Ace's type of heroism, that is.

While my speculations tend to be negative on what happens to Rimmer after SMAC, I do feel a little hope that our Ace will be different just because he does have that sense of self preservation. Maybe that will make him think things through before jumping head first into danger like the others. Plus, as you said, I feel the events of Out of Time, did change Rimmer. When he lost the crew... wow! That was powerful stuff.

And even though nobody on Red Dwarf has that knowledge of what he tried to do besides Rimmer, himself, it was still pretty darn heroic not to mention fast-thinking.

Perhaps our Ace really will break the chain.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that's a very interesting point about self-preservation. Yes, I think there's a difference between facing fear and not having it at all.

But another thing - for Ace, it seems like there's no absolute that's driving him. The Better Good Of The Universe is pretty ambiguous. Each of the girls he rescues is just another girl. What's really driving him? For the Thrid Rimmer, we have an answer (even if they only put it in the DVD - bastiges). And that brings up what it would be for our Rimmer. I've played, in fics, with the idea that it's some right to return to the 'Bug, as a hero rather than as a prodigal son.

[day221b.livejournal.com]

And that brings up what it would be for our Rimmer. I've played, in fics, with the idea that it's some right to return to the 'Bug, as a hero rather than as a prodigal son.

Which I've enjoyed. In the first series, he said he thought of himself as a goodie, even when his actions tended not to be so good. I really don't know what his driving force was...except that Lister tricked/urged him. Hmm. It makes me think that he would want to return one day, to go home, but yeah as I one of your fics illustrated, I don't think he would, at least not alive anyway. I don't think its as much pride, as the hatred of the failure inside himself that wouldn't let Rimmer go home.

I do know that he really did seem to "get it" in the first ep of Series VII. That JFK was both a good man and a bad man. Where Lister was trying to categorize him as either good or bad, Rimmer saw both and accepted it. Seems there's hope yet.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, he's really the voice of reason in Tikka; I like Tikka for that reason. It really shows how RW/OOT changed him.

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

I think that our Rimmer would have to find his motivation for constantly saving the universe during his initial stages as Ace. If he doesn't find one, I can easily see him either being the final link in the chain, or searching for a Rimmer who *already* has some kind of motivation for endlessly saving the universe.

I don't think that the initial motivation for him leaving would be good enough for him to keep it up. I mean, does the universe *really* need an Ace? What would happen if there wasn't always one there?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, that's something I've struggled with. SMAC-Ace says that the universe needs someone to be handsome and magnificent, but why? You sacrifice a lot to be that person, for no good reason that I can see. But I think it's more a matter of what's keeping him away from Starbug than what's making him Ace. Pride (in layers that rival a torte) will keep him away once he's made the step, and if he's not on Starbug, he pretty much has to be Ace.

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

I don't know about that - if he finds somebody (or several somebodies) who like him enough for himself, instead of for the image, I can imagine him abandoning the whole caper and settling down in some community or other. I mean, there are more options out there in the multiverse for him than just being Ace.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

Ah, I think Lister agrees with him though. That's probably part of why he pushes - nay - forces Rimmer to go through with it in SMAC. For Lister, this isn't just a chance for Rimmer to have the life of his dreams, it's a great calling; a duty. Rimmer would, no doubt, see that as some warped romantic ideal, which it may or may not be. But Lister believes in it.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Or at least he like to think so... His reasons for wanting Rimmer to go may be much more complicated than that.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

I thought it was really interesting that our Rimmer without his inhibitions was so ruthless about doing what he thought was right, clearly not considering that he might in any way be wrong. It was like Rimmer with the waxdroids, only so charismatic and seemingly selfless that people never thought of criticising him. A most scary thought to let somebody like that loose on the universe.
But the guy we see in OOT is not like that. He is just as disgusted as Lister at the callousness of their future self, to the extent that the coward Rimmer has found something he is willing to die for and that is not becoming like that, despite the perks.
So the guy who goes off to be Ace is no longer careless about other peoples life and has come to a point where he has found that there is things that are worse than dying. But his sense of self-preservation seems to be there in full force, he proves that in the first episode of the season. There are clearly still limits to what he would put his life down for.
So Rimmer now has this ship of his own, presumably with the most advanced technology ever, and the vaguest mandate possible: to be Ace Rimmer. What would he do? And what will he do when he realises he has been tricked into something he is clearly not up to?

[day221b.livejournal.com]

A most scary thought to let somebody like that loose on the universe.

That is scary. I hadn't thought of that...but you're right. He did change, whereas his future self seemed to have reverted. Hmm. Weird. But I thought everybody's future self was just too fantastic.

What would he do? And what will he do when he realises he has been tricked into something he is clearly not up to?

That's a very good question. I guess it might depend on why Rimmer thinks Lister tricked him. Him being Rimmer, I'm sure he'll take the most negative and believe that Lister wanted to be rid of him. So either bitter to the last or I could see him pushing himself and using the thought of Lister looking down on and thinking ill of him to fight against when cowardice tried to get the better of him. If that's the case, then isn't that what the first Ace did? Pushed himself harder when others made fun of him for being held back a year?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ja, Emohawk!Ace is pretty scary. What I think is interesting, though, is that he's quite eager to kill Cat, but he's very protective of Lister (cue slash!).

Yes, I wonder if the first Ace was ever really happy with himself... I feel like SMAC-Ace had a much better idea of what he was doing and why, and was more... at peace with it all.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think he would conclude that Lister tricked him just to get rid of him, and knowing he would die fairly quickly. But I don't see Rimmer wanting to prove anything because of that, quite the contrary, I think he may decide to break the chain because of that. Why should I do something I don't see the purpose in, have been tricked into doing and is not in any way equipped for?
The question is of course what alternatives he will be able to find. But he has a fast dimension jumping ship, so anything is possible. Or maybe he will first decide he needs a nice quiet place to finish his training, and then end up there. But in any case, he will never be the old Rimmer again, so he may actually now find people who would like and respect him even without being Ace. And then who needs the Starbuggers?
Although I of course think he will always be missing Lister, no matter how betrayed he feels ::sniffle::

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Rimmer does have a tendancy, though, to become trapped in others' expectations, even when they're gone, even when they're long-dead...

[cyber-moggy.livejournal.com]

The other option that occurred to me is that he plays Ace in his own way - I can imagine our Rimmer turning Ace into a completely ruthless bastard to achieve what he thinks is right, without sacrificing his sense of self-preservation.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

And then who needs the Starbuggers?
I'd like to think he does. Well; Lister at any rate. Lister has, in a way, always tried to be on Rimmer's side.

No, stop looking at me like that, let me explain! ;)

Yes, Lister can't stand him, or at least he couldn't stand him during most of the time they spent together. But the thing about Lister is that he can't stop believing there is something good in everyone, which is why he constantly tries to change Rimmer, or look for (what he deems to be) good qualities in him. Who always insists on going in/back to save Rimmer, no matter how much of a mess he's made, or what he has done? Consider Rimmer's trial; there is truth in Lister's statement that he IS the person closest to Rimmer.

So yes, Rimmer could find someone who liked and respected him, but it is easy to respect and like Ace. Lister, on the other hand (with the exception of Nirvanah Crane) is the only person who at least TRIED to like and respect him as RIMMER. Not even his own family managed that.

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

Rimmer without his inhibitions was so ruthless about doing what he thought was right

Mmm, I don't know about that. He did tell the Cat about his plan, and while the Cat was in no condition to react accordinly, neither was Rimmer. More to the point we can see in the deleted scenes that he couldn't actually do it.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

He felt bad about doing it. And then he was interrupted. So there is no reason to think he wouldn't have gone through with it - the greater good and such.

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

He did say "I can't do it, damn it!". And then Liater and Kryten came in.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

I do feel a little hope that our Ace will be different just because he does have that sense of self preservation.
Yes indeed! And frankly, I think he'd want to stay alive just to show that he could, because he knows people would expect him to fail.

That's another thing though; Lister quite obviously thought that Rimmer had it in him to succeed. He DID believe in him. But did Rimmer pick up on that? You'd think he would, but based on my experience of the man, I'd say he'd be just as likely not to.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

As a slasher I would like to think he believes in Rimmer. But is there really any sign of it? He does his level best to discourage the other Ace from recruiting him by expanding on how useless Rimmer is. He only tries to help out because Ace believe that every Rimmer can be Ace, not because he thinks so himself. Of course he should believe it, he has seen what Rimmer can do without his hang-ups removed, but obviously he has little belief in Rimmer achieving that without Emohawk assistance.
But I actually thinks Rimmer does believe that Lister believes in him. The whole scene where they are talking at the rail indicates that. He wants to believe it, because he is no longer the git who don't care what people thinks of him.
But when he figures out he has been tricked, it will be Terrorform all over again.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

He does his level best to discourage the other Ace from recruiting him by expanding on how useless Rimmer is.

He makes two jibes, but then goes ahead with it - without all that much persuasion. I like to think it's partly his past experience with Rimmer, but mixed with concern for the man - I mean, this Ace is dying, and it's pretty clear, at that point, that the same will happen to Rimmer.

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Being the devils advocate here, you could just as well interpret it as not believing in it, but going along because he wanted to help Ace and it got him a chance to get rid of Rimmer without leaving him or turning him off or anything else that would feel unethical to him.
I always come back to the dream as being Listers realisation, too late, of what he actually had done. He thought he still wanted Rimmer gone and sent him off to die on his own, without realising that he no longer really wanted to get rid of him, and that they actually could have had become close now that Rimmer had changed so much. Even on a friendship level, this was not something he could have with Cat or Kryten. Kochanskis appearance postponed the realisation until it became obvious that he could not have that with her either.

[kahvi.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting; we have very different views of that episode! :)

For me, even watching it before I was a slasher, I always saw Lister as gaining faith in Rimmer as the episode progressed. Yes, he protests in the beginning, but of course he would; Lister is not a man to let go of ideas easily. (Get Kochanski, get back to Earth, no matter if she's dead and the Earth no longer exists.) Consider, for example, the fight between Rimmer-as-Ace and Lister disguisted as the knight. Lister doesn't seem at all surprised that Rimmer won. I'm horrible at remembering details, but for me, it was part of the theme of the episode; Lister finally gains some trust and faith in Rimmer.

There is, of course, an implication which I hadn't thought about before now. Namely, if Lister doesn't think Rimmer has what it takes to make it as Ace, but still forces - there really is no other word for it IMO - Rimmer to go, he is effectively knowingly condemning Rimmer to death. Now, I can see Lister wanting Rimmer to leave so badly that he'd lie, cheat and con him to make it happen. But knowingly sending him to his death? That seems very out of character to me.

(BTW, I'm not seeing this as an attack on Lister; I'm enjoying the different perspective. This has inspired fic! :D )

[nessaancalime.livejournal.com]

Hm, I can not really see him gaining any trust in Rimmer. He sets the thing up, knowing that Rimmer would take the easy way and use the gun instead of fighting with swords. He trusted Rimmers self preservation instincts. He knew they existed all along. But being Ace requires the courage to jump into things rather than just defending himself when attacked.
Lister is sending Rimmer off to be heroic and fulfill his destiny - if he can. The fact that he sends him to his death can in his mind easily be glossed over by the first. After all Lister beliefs in heroism and fighting for the good of everyone. Afterwards he probably realises that his motives may not be so pure, not to mention that after all he was not so keen on Rimmer leaving as he thought.