Question

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

Well, sort of. I see there's been some discussion lately regarding VIII and Rimmer in particular, which I er... missed. And well... There is this thing in BITR that always bothered me. In the trial scene the posse have to sign a consent form to be tried by mind probe using psychotropic drugs, but Rimmer never does. Can that be legal? Without Rimmer's trial they would have nothing on the rest either. Personally I believe they have been wrongfully imprisoned. They should be released immedately!

*glances up*
I will go quietly away now.

Comments

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

There's a clause in the Standard JMC Employment Contract, you see, that allows the company to administer psychotropic testing with no advance warning and at its own discretion. Rimmer didn't read the contract through when he signed it. Lister didn't read it at all, and signed it with an X.

At least, that's what I imagine. ;)

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

It's right below the clause about not allowing cats, and two above the clause about chicken soup technicians filling in for drive plate engineers when all of the drive plate engineers have massive hangovers and are unable to fulfil their repair duties.

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

Ah, but is the contract still valid if the JMC no longer exists? Is it?!

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

As long as any JMC ship is still in existence, the JMC is still in existence! All for one and one for all! Or something...

Of course, if the JMC contract no longer applies, any kind of constitution under which any of the humans aboard the ship would have any kind of civil rights would no longer apply, either. They could try seeking political asylum under the GELF commonwealth, but I think Lister's wife is still miffed.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

If that's so then it's survival of the fittest, or, perhaps, survival of the more-willing-to-eat-the-others-est.

So it should be Ackerman and his Canaries that rule.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Conehead!Holly runs the ship, though. And he answers to Hollister, for whatever reason.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I wonder what that reason is.

Perhaps he's programmed to only answer to the Captain.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

It makes a lot of sense for JMC to desing it that way. I guess JMC might do something sensible once in a while...

Cooperation is all. Holly controls access to 13. Maybe Ackerman could get the Canaries out (he seems to have free into/out of 13 access, from Pete), and maybe Holly can override him. But even if he could get them out, would he? He's been lording it over them, and they're going to have no love for him. He'd get a knife in the kidneys in a moment. Whereas, if he follows Hollister and keeps the Canaries in line, he keeps his nice pad (seen in Krytie TV) and his cushy post, and a chance of taking command once Hollister dies of a myocardial infarct.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

"Design," not "Desing." The latter is what Ackerman does to the Imprompteu Canary Chorus.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

True. True. Although there has to be someone the Canaries respect enough to lead them in some semblance of order.

Although one wonders what would happen if the Canaries knew what was going on. Would they rebel?

BTW, I think Toddhunter would be next in line?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Todhunter isn't in VIII. I think the nanobots were choosy in who they resurrected - Kochanski I and Todhunter weren't there... Maybe the nanobots were careful to keep the competent dead.

Although there has to be someone the Canaries respect enough to lead them in some semblance of order.

Why? They're convicted criminals, and mostly alpha males. Prison riots in the past have mainly been that, riots, without any one central leader being able to take control.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Because they generally go down into dangerous situations in some sort of order? I'm basing it on their actions during their drops, not a theoretical riot.

Also, about Todhunter... Peterson isn't shown but it's implied he still exists, perhaps Todhunter is still around too, just not visibly because they couldn't hire the actor back for whatever reason.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

They do run missions, but they're generally chaotic. Our people (Lister, Rimmer, Kryten, Cat, Kochanski) are organized, but they're quite different from the rest of the prisoners. The missions on the part of the rest are more along the lines of Kill Crazy yelling, "Let's kiiiiillll something!" and knocking himself out on a door.

Yep, exactly - they put in a stand-in for Petersen, but not for Todhunter. That's why I figgered he just wasn't there.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

They had a stand-in for Peterson? I thought he was just never *in* a scene.

I think if people started dissapearing off the main crew, there would be more then a few questions.

But then, that makes for an interesting plot bunny.

Also, the missions seem to be somewhat organized. In "Cassandra" we had Knots going around and telling the Canaries that there was flooding on the upper decks. Plus, the Canaries tend to organize themselves into fireteams of five or less. Just judging from the Time wand episode.

Although there is still KillCrazy's chaotic element there too.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

The third fellow in the gas mask in the return-to-RD scene. The cast said in the commentary and in the documentary that it was meant to be a standin for Petersen, as they couldn't get the guy. (Probably too busy with Harry Potter.)

Not if the Nanobots modified the computer's memory banks and the memories of the crew. Why not? If they can resurrect everyone and everything from dust, they can do that much.

I assumed Knott was a guard; he was wearing a different vest from the rest. There were well-armed guards in the Ackerman-addresses-the-Canaries scenes; you'd assume they were in the same boat as Ackerman. Hires who have a lot to lose.

IMO, they are organized by the powers that be (Ackerman and the guards) into groups of five or fewer, not self-organized - indeed, organized just so that they're kept from whatever little chance is left of organizing. Like chain gangs, or current prison work details.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Ah, okay.

You would be right with your assumption that Knott was a guard. He's listed as "Warden Knot" in the credits. (Which doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense really.)

However if the Canaries allow themselves to be ordered about and organized by Ackerman, could he not also take over Red Dwarf in some sort of coup?

As for Peterson having a stand in, I didn't think that was, literally, supposed to be Peterson, since Lister's other friends tell Lister that Peterson was too drunk to come.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Ah, but either way - if he was too drunk to come (will not make slashy comments), then he was aboard the ship.

They follow Ackerman because Ackerman has control over them. But his control depends on the guards and on the prisoner's physical incarceration (one assumes that he has the ability to, for instance, take away their food, or keep their lights on all night). If he gives them freedom, they would have no reason to follow him. Can you see the warden of a current prison raising an army of gas station robbers, rapists, and only slightly sane murderers?

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree that Ackerman would never do it. I'm just theorizing about weither or not it would be believable for Hollister to be threated by a _potential_ Ackerman coup.

Do you think they'd be transporting Rapists as well? I'd imagine that would present some logistical problems since they would most likely have to be isolated from the rest of the convict population.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Nah. Hollister's canny. He'd know that Ackerman isn't in a good position to threaten him.

They already segregate men and women in the living areas. I don't see why not.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Usually rapists are segregated from the general prison population because they are likely to be targeted by the other inmates.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Are they? I couldn't find any refs online to standard practice, and I'd think that would be prohibitive in terms of space.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Hm. I don't think it's prohibitive in terms of space. Supermax facilities are set up to have a large precentage of beds that used for single convicts in isolation.

I've heard from various sources that rapists are often isolated due to them being picked out by the rest of the population and assaulted or killed.

I'd have to try to trace my internet steps to find them though. Which may mean I can't.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

I've heard that for child molesters, but not rapists in general. Then again, I've tried to minimize the time I spend in prison.

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

I would think it more likely for mutiny to arise within the crew. They are bound to realize that as there isno JMC anymore, Hollister doesn't have any real aouthority anymore.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I've had a problem with that as well. If the posse has to sign the consent form then Rimmer should have to as well.

Besides the JMC isn't military, technically everyone aboard is a civilian therefore they should have rights.

I think Hollister's throwing them in jail, illegally, to shut them up (since they have access to the confidential files) and keep them out of his way (since they also have access to information that could throw RD into turmoil.)

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

I think Hollister's throwing them in jail, illegally, to shut them up

Oh, of course he is. ;) It also gives him confirmation of the nanobot story. He knows that something is wrong and that they are far (far!) from Earth, and so he can act in an "Emergency situation, human rights suspended, the terrorists have already won" mode. The consent forms were just a prop, like the invitation given to Rimmer - just a way to get them to lick something.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking he wants to keep acting in the same bureaucratic rubber stamping way, but with them out of the picture so as not to interfer with him.

I'm just curious why cone-head Holly is going along with it.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Why wouldn't he go along with it? Hollister's the captain.

Most employees give up some rights when they sign a contract. Hollister has gotten to his position by weaseling the system (as his self-confession in BITR), and is probably really good at it by now. So he'll find the way to administer the tests without explicit consent. As long as he's the captain, Holly will obey him.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

But, you'd think if Hollister was finagelling the system Holly would have something to say about it. But maybe egghead Holly has less of a personality then our Holly.

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

Hollister implies that he's been fudging the system throughout his entire career, from donut boy to captain.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

What I mean is, perhaps that wasn't as blatantly obvious as Hollister throwing regulations (or what have you) out the window when he questions Rimmer.

You'd think Holly would be aware of that, but, maybe not?

[roadstergal.livejournal.com]

That's exactly it - we don't know if he threw regulations out of the window. We don't know that the contract with JMC doesn't allow for questioning without consent forms. It might very well. Certainly, since Holly goes along with it, it implies that it does - or that something can be finagled by a good finagler to make such questioning nominally legal.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

These are things that must be known! XD

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

Indeed!

Mr Naylor must provide us with the JMC terms of employment contract for review.

[typhonblue.livejournal.com]

Perhaps we can write to him and request it?

[eviltigerlily.livejournal.com]

It's probably ok as long as no one complains (no that there is anyone to complain to).