Was Lister really homophobic?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

For some reason I was thinking today of Series 7, for no particular reason, and alighted on Lister's bad reaction in "Duct Soup" to Kochanski talking about her dimension's Dave being gay. I've seen this brought up in discussions elsewhere, basically taking Lister (and Doug of course) to task for turning an otherwise tolerant and accepting character into a -phobe of some sort.

I feel like there's a far simpler explanation for why Lister reacted this way, that doesn't make him look like a bad person as some have indicated, who've said their opinion of him was lowered as a result of this episode. Perhaps the one most fanboys and others might accept is that he's afraid Kochanski will get the idea he's NOT interested in her, and never respond to his advances or take them seriously - so instead of just saying he's not and leaving it at that, he, like so many men before and since, overreacts, thinking this answers the question without any Unfortunate Implications to Their Character.

HOWEVER ... I think for our purposes and even within canon, there's a better explanation (I just kind of wish we didn't have to wait another episode to get to it, because as a standalone episode, it kind of makes him look bad). "Blue" immediately follows this episode; Lister spends the whole time moping over Rimmer. And as we know, it isn't the moping of missing a best friend - it's deliberately played as being a possibility of more than simply "missing a buddy." Lister is seemingly bothered by the implication he could find Rimmer attractive; my guess is this and "Duct Soup" are meant to be linked by the common thread of Lister worrying over this one thing, and not necessarily meant to show he's a homophobic man. Am I just stating the obvious, or has anyone else not considered this about "Duct Soup" before now, either?

Comments

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

(Disclaimer to any passing slashphobes, who shouldn't be here if it offends them, but what the hell. This is a theory for fun, nothing more, nothing less.)

I have seen this theory put forward before and I like it, because Lister's character is so laid back and egalitarian that for me it's the only way to make sense of his reaction. I'd add a personal bit of fanon - maybe he's already having vague dreams about Rimmer in "Duct Soup" but doesn't remember them properly, hence his shocked reaction to his dream in "Blue".

"Duct Soup" begins rather memorably with a topless, sweaty Lister trying to sleep and failing miserably. Maybe that's not just down to the heat? Logically enough, he takes a shower but perhaps he needs to cool off in more ways than one? ;)

This sexual frustration theory is borne out by the fact that the next time we see him, he's in the laundry room watching KK's underwear. His next act is to run her a bath. I'm sure his motives are partly kindness, but perhaps somewhere in his subconscious he's trying a bit too hard to redirect his sexual interest. Or if you prefer, having someone around he finds attractive and can openly acknowledge as such (Kochanski) has boosted his libido to such an extent that it's stirred the latent attraction to Rimmer buried deep in his subconscious.

I'm not sure if that makes sense. Just off the top of my head. ;)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I guess I feel if you're a slash-phobe, you probably wouldn't/shouldn't be here anyway. So I don't worry about them. :-)

In all honesty, I think Lister would be happy as a pig in muck if both Kochanski and Rimmer agreed to make themselves available for a triangular relationship (i.e., not with each other, but each with him). I have no problem seeing him as bisexual, and as having the ability to love both of them sexually and otherwise. But in "Duct Soup" he definitely doesn't seem able to accept that (yet?).

Oh well. If we didn't read into canon and subvert it, we wouldn't exist here, LOL.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I can definitely see an R/L/K OT3. I have no interest in writing that, but I'd read it if someone else did. ;)

MissFlibble wrote a fic which came close to that. Angsty but great. :)

[erinptah]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm one of the gays myself and I never saw that line as homophobic. It's not just some random stranger whose sexuality Lister gets unsettled over, it's an alternate version of himself -- which means it raises questions like "Am I like that too? Could I have been like that? If not, why not?"

We've seen characters react with shock and discomfort to major identity traits in their other AU selves, whether those traits are negative (Lister and Rimmer being horrified that their female selves are as slobby and creepy, respectively, as they are) or positive (Rimmer getting twitchy and defensive when confronted with Ace's heroism). So Lister having a similar reaction to his AU sexuality doesn't necessarily imply any value judgment, just that his own attraction to women is deeply personal and a big part of his life, and it's weird to suddenly think of it as optional or incidental to his sense of self.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I'm not gay and don't have that perspective, so admittedly I can only speak for me. I've had occasions over the past few decades to think about my leanings and to wonder if I have any sexual interest beyond men, and while I haven't come to the conclusion I do, it's never particularly upset me to think of being lesbian or bisexual. If there are parallel universes, I probably am in some of them. (It HAS bothered me to think of how other people might react to me in that situation, just as it bothers me when people react badly to finding out anyone they know is anything other than 100 percent heterosexual ... but I sort of feel like that's a different thing, in that it goes back to "what danger could this put me in?" and less "OMG, my sense of self!")

I know, easy for ME to say.

I guess I hold Lister to a higher standard (well - as highly as fictional characters who aren't real people can be held) because in all other respects he's always seemed pretty cool with anything anyone IS. I guess I figure in 100, 200 years when this is set, Earth societies might be less weird about gay people and they're just a part of everyday public life and nobody really cares much.

[erinptah]

Oh, I'm sure it's different for different people! It sounds like you've had occasion to really reflect on what it would be like to have a different orientation, or to think something like "this feeling I have toward a certain woman, is it at all romantic or sexual? What would it mean for my life if it were?" And it seems unlikely that Lister's ever done that, any more than he's ever thought "these guitar skills I have, might they not be so amazing after all?"

And again, it isn't necessarily judgmental to feel weird about a big part of your life being different. To take an example from a less fraught topic, I've never had any interest in sports, and it's always been pretty obvious to me that I never will. So if I were confronted with an AU version of myself who had a room covered in team pennants, wore all the jerseys, went to all the games, and was as fangirly about a Super Bowl win as I am about, oh, the announcement that Red Dwarf X was being made...it would be kind of jarring, you know? Doesn't mean I have any prejudice against other people in this universe who are into sports, or that it's a reflection of some kind of entrenched sports-fan-phobia in our culture! It would be a purely personal reaction, that's all.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Agreed about Lister's non-judgmental attitude. I know it's not the same thing, but the way he treats Kryten exactly the same in "DNA" whether he's human or not springs to mind.

It was a long time ago, so I might be misremembering, but I think my initial reaction to "Duct Soup" was "Oh fuck, they went there!". Meaning they shattered my pleasant idea of the RD future as non-phobic, for want of a better word. It was like the word "racist" coming up in "Fathers And Suns". It just jarred. :/

As a gay person myself, it was disappointing, which is partly why I like the theory about the connection to "Blue".

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, but, there is always Rimmer, who's pretty homophobic. Then again as with most things, that's Rimmer. :-/

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Well, exactly. Rimmer's homophobia just seems to me to be an inevitable by-product of his upbringing, a symptom of his general smegged-upness.

And since I got into slash, it also seems to me that he's deeply closeted and hates his sexuality as he does everything else about himself. I can only feel sorry for him really. I know he's a fictional character, but there are too many people like that irl.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

I always wanted to know how Rimmer would react if Lister told him about his lower self in "Demons and Angels"...:P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I doubt he'd believe Lister, or he'd go on as though he doesn't. Look at how he reacted to Ace, and how badly he got on with Rimmer 2 in Me2.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he would freak out about it, for sure. I can picture him trying to overcompensate and be extra heterosexual after hearing that. :P

[hazeltea.livejournal.com]

I think that Lister doesn't hate gay people, he's just had limited exposure to them ('You called him Bent Bob?')and hanging out with a rowdy pub crowd would naturally make him self conscious about being thought of as not 'manly', as they tend to tease each other constantly. It's a simple matter of ignorance, if you left Lister with a group of ten gay people for a day, he'd leave thinking they were good people and that he was worried about nothing.

[derien.livejournal.com]

I've found, too, that quite a few of my coworkers who you would assume were homophobic because they make comments all the time without thinking about them, are really not when it comes to people they know. The worst one for making comments, and the most riled by being teased about maybe him being gay, was/is also totally BFF with a gay guy. Because humans are not logical. Often what comes out of their mouths is a kneejerk "this is what we say in this kind of situation."

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think it's OK to be human, and humans can fear things that don't apply directly to them (or that do in some cases). For me, it's the idea of being imperfect, but being willing to change if someone points it out as being potentially hurtful.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I don't think all homophobes hate gay people; I think like anything else, it's in degrees. But even a casual homophobe can change (and probably needs to) - it's like a guy who makes casually sexist jokes even as he says he's not a misogynist. Someone needs to point it out so he does it less often, at least, IMO.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

I had never really thought of those two episodes being connected until now, and it's like a whole new world of possibilities has opened up for me! This is now my new pet theory, so thanks for clueing me in. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Glad I was able to inspire you! (Well, the show inspired you. I just arranged it. *G*)

[sunny-bexster.livejournal.com]

Duct Soup always feels to me like...a blip in Lister's character. It seems at odds with his declaration that he's an "enlightened 23rd Century guy" and does not seem to fit with his usual liberal, all-accepting character.

The entire 'Bent Bob' discussion makes me wince a bit, as it seems so out of sorts.

I think also, by that point in the season, Lister must be aware there's literally hundreds of universes, each with their own Listers - would it be such a surprise that one of them turned out to be gay?

Additionally, there's that little deleted scene from Series 1, where Lister is giving a funeral service for the crew-members and he puts Sam and Rick together in the same cannister, as they were dating. Such an action just doesn't seem to gel with the comments and the reactions from Duct Soup.

I always feel a little sad about Duct Soup - Red Dwarf proposes a future that appears to have moved past prejudices to a certain degree. Yes, it's a comedy show, so it's not exactly going to make light of discrimination, but it's never shied away from the heavy stuff. Today, Liverpool has a friendly, vibrant gay community and hosts a yearly pride parade which is attended by a considerable number of people and boycotted by only a few. Part of me likes to think this mentally carried on well into Lister's time and afterwards.

...I guess I have issues with Duct Soup :S

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, as a Lister fan. It's a bit like "Meltdown" for some Rimmer fans in its OOC-ness. :/

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The Bent Bob reference didn't bother me much, since from what I've seen, guys have a tendency to insult each other casually if they're friends - but not maliciously. Who knows, Bob might have called him Dirty Dave or some such, for his appalling hygiene. ;-)

But everything else, I agree. It just seemed odd to me that he'd be like that; I too remember the canister thing (though maybe that's not "canon" since it was a cut scene - technicalities).

[felineranger.livejournal.com]

My interpretation was always that his reaction was 50% shock and 50% bravado. At this point he's desperate for Kochanski to see him as a potential partner and it seems natural that he would overreact to anything that might compromise that. He clearly had no issue with 'Bent Bob' and it seems unlikely that he was the one who initiated the nickname. Personally, I always felt they should have switched Blue and Duct Soup around, as the conversation would have had far more resonance AND comedy value with that added dimension to it. As it stands, Listers reaction is that of someone being confronted with a side of himself he doesn't recognise - if it takes place after Blue, then its a man honestly questioning if he's the person he's always assumed he was.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

And of course we shouldn't forget that he's panicking due to his claustrophobia which probably affects his ability to express himself properly. Panic does that to you.

You are so right that they should have switched the running order of "Blue" and "Duct Soup". It would have made so much more sense character-wise.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

if it takes place after Blue, then its a man honestly questioning if he's the person he's always assumed he was.

That's an interesting concept. Given how other series were with episodes out of order, who can say if Blue wasn't supposed to come first, after all?

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I've just remembered another thing which for some reason always slips my mind - the on-the-lips kiss he gives Petersen in "Stasis Leak". I know it's not a sexual kiss and it's because he's so pleased to see someone he thought he'd never see again, but still, that's another argument for him not being homophobic. :)