Was Lister really homophobic?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

For some reason I was thinking today of Series 7, for no particular reason, and alighted on Lister's bad reaction in "Duct Soup" to Kochanski talking about her dimension's Dave being gay. I've seen this brought up in discussions elsewhere, basically taking Lister (and Doug of course) to task for turning an otherwise tolerant and accepting character into a -phobe of some sort.

I feel like there's a far simpler explanation for why Lister reacted this way, that doesn't make him look like a bad person as some have indicated, who've said their opinion of him was lowered as a result of this episode. Perhaps the one most fanboys and others might accept is that he's afraid Kochanski will get the idea he's NOT interested in her, and never respond to his advances or take them seriously - so instead of just saying he's not and leaving it at that, he, like so many men before and since, overreacts, thinking this answers the question without any Unfortunate Implications to Their Character.

HOWEVER ... I think for our purposes and even within canon, there's a better explanation (I just kind of wish we didn't have to wait another episode to get to it, because as a standalone episode, it kind of makes him look bad). "Blue" immediately follows this episode; Lister spends the whole time moping over Rimmer. And as we know, it isn't the moping of missing a best friend - it's deliberately played as being a possibility of more than simply "missing a buddy." Lister is seemingly bothered by the implication he could find Rimmer attractive; my guess is this and "Duct Soup" are meant to be linked by the common thread of Lister worrying over this one thing, and not necessarily meant to show he's a homophobic man. Am I just stating the obvious, or has anyone else not considered this about "Duct Soup" before now, either?

Comments

[erinptah]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm one of the gays myself and I never saw that line as homophobic. It's not just some random stranger whose sexuality Lister gets unsettled over, it's an alternate version of himself -- which means it raises questions like "Am I like that too? Could I have been like that? If not, why not?"

We've seen characters react with shock and discomfort to major identity traits in their other AU selves, whether those traits are negative (Lister and Rimmer being horrified that their female selves are as slobby and creepy, respectively, as they are) or positive (Rimmer getting twitchy and defensive when confronted with Ace's heroism). So Lister having a similar reaction to his AU sexuality doesn't necessarily imply any value judgment, just that his own attraction to women is deeply personal and a big part of his life, and it's weird to suddenly think of it as optional or incidental to his sense of self.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I'm not gay and don't have that perspective, so admittedly I can only speak for me. I've had occasions over the past few decades to think about my leanings and to wonder if I have any sexual interest beyond men, and while I haven't come to the conclusion I do, it's never particularly upset me to think of being lesbian or bisexual. If there are parallel universes, I probably am in some of them. (It HAS bothered me to think of how other people might react to me in that situation, just as it bothers me when people react badly to finding out anyone they know is anything other than 100 percent heterosexual ... but I sort of feel like that's a different thing, in that it goes back to "what danger could this put me in?" and less "OMG, my sense of self!")

I know, easy for ME to say.

I guess I hold Lister to a higher standard (well - as highly as fictional characters who aren't real people can be held) because in all other respects he's always seemed pretty cool with anything anyone IS. I guess I figure in 100, 200 years when this is set, Earth societies might be less weird about gay people and they're just a part of everyday public life and nobody really cares much.

[erinptah]

Oh, I'm sure it's different for different people! It sounds like you've had occasion to really reflect on what it would be like to have a different orientation, or to think something like "this feeling I have toward a certain woman, is it at all romantic or sexual? What would it mean for my life if it were?" And it seems unlikely that Lister's ever done that, any more than he's ever thought "these guitar skills I have, might they not be so amazing after all?"

And again, it isn't necessarily judgmental to feel weird about a big part of your life being different. To take an example from a less fraught topic, I've never had any interest in sports, and it's always been pretty obvious to me that I never will. So if I were confronted with an AU version of myself who had a room covered in team pennants, wore all the jerseys, went to all the games, and was as fangirly about a Super Bowl win as I am about, oh, the announcement that Red Dwarf X was being made...it would be kind of jarring, you know? Doesn't mean I have any prejudice against other people in this universe who are into sports, or that it's a reflection of some kind of entrenched sports-fan-phobia in our culture! It would be a purely personal reaction, that's all.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Agreed about Lister's non-judgmental attitude. I know it's not the same thing, but the way he treats Kryten exactly the same in "DNA" whether he's human or not springs to mind.

It was a long time ago, so I might be misremembering, but I think my initial reaction to "Duct Soup" was "Oh fuck, they went there!". Meaning they shattered my pleasant idea of the RD future as non-phobic, for want of a better word. It was like the word "racist" coming up in "Fathers And Suns". It just jarred. :/

As a gay person myself, it was disappointing, which is partly why I like the theory about the connection to "Blue".

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, but, there is always Rimmer, who's pretty homophobic. Then again as with most things, that's Rimmer. :-/

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

Well, exactly. Rimmer's homophobia just seems to me to be an inevitable by-product of his upbringing, a symptom of his general smegged-upness.

And since I got into slash, it also seems to me that he's deeply closeted and hates his sexuality as he does everything else about himself. I can only feel sorry for him really. I know he's a fictional character, but there are too many people like that irl.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

I always wanted to know how Rimmer would react if Lister told him about his lower self in "Demons and Angels"...:P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I doubt he'd believe Lister, or he'd go on as though he doesn't. Look at how he reacted to Ace, and how badly he got on with Rimmer 2 in Me2.

[fantasysci5.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he would freak out about it, for sure. I can picture him trying to overcompensate and be extra heterosexual after hearing that. :P