Last Woman?

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I had a shower thought while I was getting ready this morning. I wonder how different the general fan population response to Lister/Rimmer shipping would be, if Lister were a female.

Imagine the show is still exactly the same, the same plots, the same scripts (with a few modifications here and there for pronouns obviously), but Lister is played by a woman, and is a female character. How different, do you think the responses of the general fandom would be, to the idea of the two characters becoming romantic with one another? I'm sure there would still be naysayers and those who couldn't get past Lister's slobbiness and the surface dislike the characters have for one another, but I have a feeling that loads more people would be champing at the bit to see the two of them get together, and hoping that the ultimate end of the show would involve the two of them realizing that they can be happily ever after together.

Imagine how differently the state-of-the art sarnie scene would read to an average heterosexual crowd, if Lister had been a woman instead of a man. I doubt you'd have anyone saying that we were "reaching" to imply some sexual overtones in Rimmer's comparison. Not to mention Lister pining for Rimmer in series VII. Or the love that High Lister and Rimmer express for one another in Demons and Angels.

My thought is, if you would be willing to except romance between two characters if they were of opposite genders, then probably the only reason why you're NOT ok with romance happening between the two of them, is because they're of the same gender. As someone wisely said on Tumblr, it's not about making everything gay, it's about not having heterosexuality be the default.

Comments

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

Interesting thing about that - I've noticed a lot of romantic comedies write a severely uptight perfectionist career-driven women paired off with slovenly, disorganized, ultimately-quite-sweet guys. I haven't seen nearly as much in terms of slobby women and uptight guys. (At least not in American media.)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

You know I did think about posing the opposite scenario where Lister is still a man and Rimmer is a woman, but that felt like it would just be mirroring the similar dynamic that happened with Lister and KK2.

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

Yeah, female!Lister and male Rimmer would be more interestingly original.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

You've probably read this, but I never miss a chance to link to it as it's really good. :) http://diminua.livejournal.com/31604.html

[rosecathy1.livejournal.com]

I was just going to say -- KK2 is the Last Woman in her universe. You can see from the flashbacks that she and her Dave had compatibility issues to start, so much so that she dumped him in favour of her ex. Yet their getting back together after the accident is just accepted because what, they're a man and a woman? (Yes, I realise that out-of-universe, it had to be that way for Series VII plot reasons.)

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of the significance of KK2's alternate universe, because yes that's the stereotypical situation isn't it? Last woman alive, of COURSE she winds up becoming romantically involved with her hologramatic male companion, even though they previously dated and found they weren't compatible. Because with no other options, of course the last two differently-gendered people in the universe will eventually connect romantically and sexually. It's just human nature!

If the last two people in the universe are same-gendered though? Oh, no chance. Nope, not happening. Because it's never expressly said at any point on the show that either of them are gay, and everyone knows that sexuality is completely black and white, and there's only like 10% of the population who are gay anyway, so who needs to see that?

Bah.

The more I think about it, the more it becomes clear that it's all about heterosexuality being the default. Lister and Rimmer can't possibly be interpreted as being bisexual or gay, because everyone is 100% straight unless they're written as being what would probably be some sort of over-the-top gay stereotype. The fact that characters could fall somewhere in the middle doesn't even seem to occur to a lot of people.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Me personally, I dislike what I read as forced romance in a lot of movies and TV shows that happen to star a man and a woman. Sometimes the tension and/or chemistry is there and sometimes it's sexual, but sometimes it's not. For whatever reason, I was a Noromo in the X-Files fandom - I was fine with people who shipped Mulder/Scully and I even read the occasional fic, but I didn't feel it myself, and I really didn't want them to get together in the show. (I guess what Carter did with having them eventually be together, have a baby together, etc., without explicitly showing much of anything, was a pretty good compromise to me.)

My point is, I'm always a little befuddled by people who let gender stand in the way of "seeing" something that's just going to circulate in fandom anyway. Lister/Rimmer will never become canon, and I'm not sure I'd want it to. I don't know if it could be written to my satisfaction - I don't mean the sex, I mean the relationship. I feel like it would become An Issue Thing, TBH. I mean, they already feel matched up to me, in their interactions and plotlines, reactions, etc. But as for it being in fanon, I think anything can be fanon - that's half the point of HAVING a fandom (I see the other half as appreciating canon/discussing and analyzing it).

But to answer your question, I don't think there's any doubt that if either Lister or Rimmer were female instead and the other were kept male, a relationship would be implied if not explicitly portrayed. In fact, I'm willing to bet if you made one of them gay in canon, even as opposite genders there'd still be this sense of "maybe that one can be converted" hanging over it. (Hey, I've seen it happen before. It's not rare in entertainment.)

[(Anonymous)]

...or there is a word 'bisexual' that homophobic people fear even more than word 'homosexual'...
When I think of slash with canon heterosexual relationships I don't think of it as 'conversion', I think of it 'they also can be bi'. But with homophobes it's always 'conversion' on any 'side'.

[lala-sara.livejournal.com]

anonymous was me, i didn't log in. but now it's pending anonymous comment so should I try to recall what i wrote? hate it.
lost momentum...
it should said:
...or there is a word 'bisexual' that homophobic people fear even more than 'homosexual'.
When I slash someone who have heterosexual relationship in canon I don't think of them 'converting' i think of them as bi. But for homophobes it's always about 'conversion', on any 'side'.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I was only a casual X-Files fan, but I never really felt any chemistry between Mulder and Scully either. Although I did find David Duchovny quite attractive. I stopped watching the show at some point and didn't know that actually ended with the two of them together and having a baby. That seems... odd. I might have to try to rewatch the show on Netflix sometime.

I would never want Lister/Rimmer to be written as canon either, because there would be zero chance that it would be done well. I'm just glad we have our own slashy imaginations. Still, I just wish there wasn't this divide between the people who do choose to ship them, and the people who get all up-in-arms about it.

[janamelie.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to imagine the show playing out as you describe. Assuming that Lister and Rimmer are still bunkmates - which they would have to be for the show to work - presumably there would have been some exposition at some stage explaining how in the future bunkmates of different genders is no longer an issue.

Even if their relationship was just as initially antagonistic, there is no way in hell that people wouldn't read it as incorporating sexual if not romantic attraction regardless of whether their canon orientations matched that. The "Why are they still sharing a room?" questions would be asked a lot louder than they are now. People would be convinced that whichever was the male had masturbated at the thought of his bunkmate at least once because he's a man and that's what men do, right?

Equally, if the woman was the uptight one she'd be assumed to be sex-starved and just in need of a good shag. I'm talking about fan perceptions here, not how Rob and Doug might write it.

As I wrote that I got more and more depressed at how rigid our notions of gender and orientation are. Heteronormativity is a plague. :(

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, heteronormativity is the easiest way to breed more workers. That's why it's so attractive to those in charge of laws, media, society, industry, etc.

[lordvalerymimes.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to imagine how Bodyswap would play out with a female Lister, that's the main problematic episode in terms of it being difficult to translate with Lister as a different gender. Because Lister and Rimmer are presented as both "straight guys" on the show, there's no real non-con overtones to the idea of them swapping bodies with one another. If Rimmer is straight, and Lister is also a straight female, suddenly them swapping bodies isn't just about Rimmer getting to eat berliners and smoke cigars. The moment where Rimmer had Kochanski's breast on his body and was feeling it up, was icky enough. Rimmer as he's written in those early series, especially if some deleted scenes are taken into account, certainly had a bit of a screwed up attitude towards women and their bodies. The bunkroom discussion Lister and Rimmer have prior to deciding to do the body swapping would have been much different.

I just thought of how different Rimmer pretending to be Kochanski in Balance of Power would be, if we're assuming that Kochanski would be a male officer in this female-Lister AU. I could easily see Rimmer in those early days being written to take advantage of the situation and try to get into female-Lister's pants while disguised as the man she has an unrequited crush on.

Ugh, you're right Janamelie, the more you think about how differently the show probably would have played out, just with Lister being a female instead of a male, is pretty damned grim in terms of laying bare how we perceive the different genders and how they relate to one another, especially in a general pop-culture sense.