Books question

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

*raises hand*

Okay, another question about the novels, specifically the last two. I was reading the IMDB message board for RD and there was a thread on the books - the commenter said "The Last Human" is NOT a sequel to "Backwards," but instead, that each book is that particular writer's sequel to their last joint novel, "Better Than Life."

I post this here for two reasons. One, you guys are the best bunch of discussers (and the only ones I'm familiar with so far) of Red Dwarf, generally. Second, there's an element of possible slashiness here, I suppose. TLH ends with Lister and Kochanski getting busy recreating the human race, Rimmer dead and his son still alive (and somewhere out there, I sure hope somebody's written an OT3 - not a triangle - with Lister/Kochanski/McGruder just on principle *G*). "Backwards" ends with teenage Lister and the Cat escaping a universe where Kryten and Rimmer have been killed, into an alternate dimension where Lister and the Cat had died. (No Kochanski in sight; that was handled at the beginning of the novel.)

Is this true, that each is just a sequel to BTL? Have you ever heard this - is it common knowledge and I'm just the ignoramus? Or is it untrue?

Oh, and if they're each a BTL sequel, I suppose the question becomes, what does this say for each writer's vision of the R/L relationship? Just to keep it more on-topic.

Comments

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I've kind of been batting around the idea of a Lister/Rimmer ship manifesto recently (which is a post all of it's own, I guess!), tv and novels, because while the novels seem lower than the show in subtext; it's all depth and shading for the characters themselves, which plays into how they relate. The slashiest stuff I'd say is in their novels together. (There's another moment I like that I forget to mention on your previous post re: the novels, on the retelling of 'Future Echoes' where at the point when Lister's preparing to 'meet' Death, Rimmer just says 'Don't go.' Almost certainly as a suggestion more than anything else, but it's sweet.)

I guess each writer has different priorities.
Grant seems to be totally uninterested in Lister/Kochanski for example (although there was an interview with both writers, prior to S7 and Chloe Annett as the Kochanski reboot iirc, where they both basically said that they hadn't really envisioned a personality for Kochanski in either the novels or show at all, and that they used her more as an 'icon' at best.), I don't think she ever even appears 'onscreen' in Backwards, and at the beginning, Lister's thinking about how he's dreamed of going 'home' to Starbug and the crew for years and how she belongs to the Backwards 'verse in a way he doesn't.
But then again, Grant seems to have a more...casual? Mean-spirited even? tone.
(He brings the dark humour, Naylor the more sweet/even sappier tones. They really do better as a team, although if forced to choose, I think I'm glad it was Naylor who stuck around for the last seasons rather than Grant. If the books are anything to go by, 'Last Human' was definitely my favourite over 'Backwards'. Although I've got a feeling that's a minority opinion...)
The sex scene with the Cat, for example; or Kryten and Rimmer's deaths are pretty gross, and the 'Well, we'll just find another Rimmer and Kryten!' would seem to undercut the whole point of the Ace vs. Rimmer subplot about the differences between universes.
Grant seems more interested in the sci-fi stuff as opposed to the characterisation and relationships; whereas Naylor if lacking technical skill (his episodes having the cheesier slapstick-y humour and his novels being more sentimental) obviously values the latter. (Apparently he rewrote 'Pete' in S8 specifically because it needed a stronger 'Rimmer/Lister' spine, for example.)
But then again, Naylor seems much fonder of Lister/Kochanski (I do find it fascinating how there's rarely Rimmer and Kochanski sharing time on either the shows or the novels. She's overtly shown as a replacement for either Rimmer or Lister himself - Naylor simply reuses Lister's lines from 'DNA' with her in 'Last Human' for example, and then Rimmer's killed off almost purposefully to set up Lister and Kochanski's happy ending.)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

where at the point when Lister's preparing to 'meet' Death, Rimmer just says 'Don't go.' - THIS. I caught that too on my first re-reading this decade. (And the way it's read in the audiobook just kind of cements it.)

If the books are anything to go by, 'Last Human' was definitely my favourite over 'Backwards'. Although I've got a feeling that's a minority opinion - Having only listened to the audio of TLH at this point, I have an incomplete opinion. But I liked Backwards - I suspect it was for all the Ace stuff and Rimmer backstory. I have no idea why I like Ace so much - I used to couldn't stand the git. Maybe it's because I know Rimmer eventually BECOMES that and a big majority of us seem to think he'd do not only well in the role but better than his predecessors.

and the 'Well, we'll just find another Rimmer and Kryten!' would seem to undercut the whole point of the Ace vs. Rimmer subplot about the differences between universes - BUT, you have to admit even that point from "Dimension Jump" was jossed by SMAC, where it was basically immplied that every Rimmer ends up dying as Ace and every Ace has the same personality. And wasn't that particulary plot point all on Naylor?

Apparently he rewrote 'Pete' in S8 specifically because it needed a stronger 'Rimmer/Lister' spine, for example - And in the tradition of LOLcats, Grateful Fans Are Grateful ...

and then Rimmer's killed off almost purposefully to set up Lister and Kochanski's happy ending - You couldn't be more right *grumble*. However, the luck virus bit at the very end (it's on the audiobook too) halfway annoyed me because it was cutting into the solution my brain had come up with in between bad!Lister shooting real!Lister in the nuts with the radiation, and that point: I had begun to reason that Kochanski could have the children biologically with McGruder (provided that anti-aging gene wouldn't interfere with reproduction) and either Lister could raise them with her, or all three of them could be their parents. Of course, this would be sort of cruel on McGruder, since he'd stay perpetually young and have to watch his children out-age him ... but hey, it was a solution that didn't need the luck virus AND would keep Rimmers perpetual for a while.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I like Ace in 'Backwards' a lot better than in 'Dimension Jump'.
I think it helps that there's more to show him as being heroic rather than telling us (the show's time limitations mean he ends up being the one who informs us of most of his attributes, which sort of works against say, his modesty. Things like the 'I'll be with the salt of the earth engineers rather than the admiral's party' are amusing, but they're pretty clunky exposition, and while obviously the viewer knows that it's aimed at them, the in-character reasons for bringing up that sort of stuff would seem more egotistical.)
I also find Rimmer and the crew to be slightly out of character in Dimension Jump - Rimmer's far more irritating than usual in that episode (quite a feat, lol) but the crew also do stuff they wouldn't normally (Cat being two-faced rather than openly rude to Rimmer sticks out, but also the whole fishing holiday thing.) whereas in Backwards, he seems more normal level annoying, heh.

BUT, you have to admit even that point from "Dimension Jump" was jossed by SMAC, where it was basically immplied that every Rimmer ends up dying as Ace and every Ace has the same personality. And wasn't that particulary plot point all on Naylor?

Oh, definitely, SMAC's got a ton of issues of its own! Both Naylor and Grant seemed to go back and forth on alt-personalities and whether to make a point with them (the various Aces - isn't there also a SMAC deleted scene with the Ace training 'our' Rimmer being one who left his crew and took the time drive in 'Out of Time'?, S7!Kochanski) or else just use them as replacements (book!Kochanskis, the end of 'Backwards', Nano!Rimmer - although, actually, I really like him, the consensus seems to be he doesn't match up to Holo!Rimmer, but I think that's a problem inherent with the entire show and it's style at that point rather than a specific characterisation issue. The ways he differs seem to be entirely in keeping with his changes in circumstances, and I think it's fascinating how he and Lister's relationship alters in that series.)

[nice-girls-play.livejournal.com]

Naylor simply reuses Lister's lines from 'DNA' with her in 'Last Human' for example, and then Rimmer's killed off almost purposefully to set up Lister and Kochanski's happy ending.

Wow. Heteronormative ending is heteronormative. *kicks Naylor* This is making me not want to ever read Last Human -- while the gross stuff is really, *really* making me want to read Backwards!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

LOL, well, they're both worth a read, imho, if only as background info, so I'm glad!
Although I find Last Human to be slightly slashier than Backwards, maybe *because* of the heteronormativity. Protests too much and all that ;p I mean, there's no reason why Rimmer and Kochanski can't co-exist in Lister's life, but in both the later series of the show and the book Naylor takes pains to show his Kochanski as a replacement (either a Rimmer replacement for Lister, or a Lister replacement for Rimmer) and Kochanski and Lister's relationship as something that needs Rimmer out of the way to really thrive. IMHO, it's way gayer than not having her as an issue in the first place.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Just so you know, I love you. LOL. What I enjoyed about TLH (which I am partly through now) is how Lister can't remember Cat, can't remember the woman who has sex with him, but he jumps right on Rimmer's name on first mention. (Not to mention his reaction of "oh; THAT Rimmer," which is funny on a couple of levels.)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Heh, right back atcha!
Yeah, that was slashier than the show, and the show was pretty sweet with 'He's my best mate, isn't he?' (Not to mention the accuracy of that, paralleled with how he knows he can't play guitar.)

ROFL, and Kochanski has her 'haughty demeanour and officerial posture'. Remind you of anyone?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Heh. To be fair, Doug did start early with the whole replacement business, in Balance of Power. No wonder Lister wasn't particularly upset by them nearly sleeping together in Cassandra; maybe he just saw it as advanced masturbation of a sort. ;-)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I love Balance of Power. Possibly my favourite S1 episode. 'It's Kochanski's body, Kochanski's voice, I mean, what's the difference - come on!'

ROFL, the Cassandra plot is hilarious in retrospect. Poor Cassandra's all 'Hmm, I'll get Lister to kill Rimmer' (dead Rimmer + Murderer!Lister apparently being Lister's punishment) 'Which obviously, he'll do, being driven mad with jealousy!' When actually he just seems amused, even approving. I guess Rimmer and Kochanski getting it on is just step 1 in his masterplan for the ultimate threeway.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Though, you gotta feel sorry for Kochanski in that one; I don't think she's as on-board with it as they are. When Lister says he's not going to shoot Rimmer, she goes, "Aww, but she promised!" *G*

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

ROFL, well, it's always inexplicable how Kochanski can tolerate either of them, especially the rebooted version. Especially in S8, Lister's not the last man in the universe anymore, the one thing that tied them together. She'd probably agree, then leg it! (And get Kryten to tape them in case of future misbehaviour. ;)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, we know KK chose both ways, in a sense, in Last Human, don't we? :-)