Red Dwarf Slash

I've heard the audiobook of TLH, but I haven't gotten my hands on the physical book yet (and if I ever did read it, it's been EONS and I forgot that *G*). Thanks for confirming!

(Any thoughts on how the writers each saw things differently?)

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Indeedy. Although Last Human feels like a continuation of Backwards, check the publishing dates. May be wrong but I believe LH was published before Backwards. They must have had a swift agreement between them what each would cover continuity wise and then just got on with it.

For me, Backwards feels generally a lot darker than Last Human. But read any of Grant's other books (Incompetence is particularly brilliant) and they also have that same black comedy feel. Naylor in my opinion is more about the character development and canon extension than the comedy itself (although he is a funny writer) so you can see how they worked so bloody well together. I think it's a real shame that they went their seperate ways - to resurrect the partnership for the new series would make it a masterpiece. However, Grant is less than keen. In an interview where someone asked him what it was like to see the likes of BTE, he replied 'for me it's like watching your ex wife's second honeymoon video'. Says it all really....

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I've kind of been batting around the idea of a Lister/Rimmer ship manifesto recently (which is a post all of it's own, I guess!), tv and novels, because while the novels seem lower than the show in subtext; it's all depth and shading for the characters themselves, which plays into how they relate. The slashiest stuff I'd say is in their novels together. (There's another moment I like that I forget to mention on your previous post re: the novels, on the retelling of 'Future Echoes' where at the point when Lister's preparing to 'meet' Death, Rimmer just says 'Don't go.' Almost certainly as a suggestion more than anything else, but it's sweet.)

I guess each writer has different priorities.
Grant seems to be totally uninterested in Lister/Kochanski for example (although there was an interview with both writers, prior to S7 and Chloe Annett as the Kochanski reboot iirc, where they both basically said that they hadn't really envisioned a personality for Kochanski in either the novels or show at all, and that they used her more as an 'icon' at best.), I don't think she ever even appears 'onscreen' in Backwards, and at the beginning, Lister's thinking about how he's dreamed of going 'home' to Starbug and the crew for years and how she belongs to the Backwards 'verse in a way he doesn't.
But then again, Grant seems to have a more...casual? Mean-spirited even? tone.
(He brings the dark humour, Naylor the more sweet/even sappier tones. They really do better as a team, although if forced to choose, I think I'm glad it was Naylor who stuck around for the last seasons rather than Grant. If the books are anything to go by, 'Last Human' was definitely my favourite over 'Backwards'. Although I've got a feeling that's a minority opinion...)
The sex scene with the Cat, for example; or Kryten and Rimmer's deaths are pretty gross, and the 'Well, we'll just find another Rimmer and Kryten!' would seem to undercut the whole point of the Ace vs. Rimmer subplot about the differences between universes.
Grant seems more interested in the sci-fi stuff as opposed to the characterisation and relationships; whereas Naylor if lacking technical skill (his episodes having the cheesier slapstick-y humour and his novels being more sentimental) obviously values the latter. (Apparently he rewrote 'Pete' in S8 specifically because it needed a stronger 'Rimmer/Lister' spine, for example.)
But then again, Naylor seems much fonder of Lister/Kochanski (I do find it fascinating how there's rarely Rimmer and Kochanski sharing time on either the shows or the novels. She's overtly shown as a replacement for either Rimmer or Lister himself - Naylor simply reuses Lister's lines from 'DNA' with her in 'Last Human' for example, and then Rimmer's killed off almost purposefully to set up Lister and Kochanski's happy ending.)

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I do have one non-RD Grant book I just picked up last weekend (our nearby metropolis has this used bookstore chain that, amazingly has provided about half the RD seasons I bought, as well as two of the RD books), though I haven't started on it yet. (Though I did get all excited seeing it on the shelf - ostensibly my sister has been wanting it, but I told her she'll just have to settle for borrowing mine!)

Which writer, would you say, is more behind the slashy vibe that is L/R? Since you've read all the books and I haven't quite yet. Also, do you feel that one has more of a handle on particular characters over the other, and vice versa?

'for me it's like watching your ex wife's second honeymoon video'

You know, I totally understand that. Nat and I have been writing stories together for probably 12 years now, on and off - it's fanfic, but we've created several original characters within those (and a few others apart from fanfic as well). If we parted ways and only she could legally write about those characters - including the ones I came up with - I know I'd feel bitter and voyeuristic to read those stories, even if they were good. (And I know it's a minority opinion, but while I do enjoy most of BTE, to be honest it ranks just above the second half of Series 7 for me - which is my least favorite part of the show. Still, you know what they say - some things are so good that the crap parts are still better than most of what you find in the mainstream. *G*)

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Which writer, would you say, is more behind the slashy vibe that is L/R? Since you've read all the books and I haven't quite yet. Also, do you feel that one has more of a handle on particular characters over the other, and vice versa?

I'd say that Naylor is definitely the slashy force in the partnership. Think about it - series VII and VIII - Rimmer and Lister get closer and closer to one another (character development yada yada, but it happens helluva quick). Hell, in series VIII they almost come off as close friends in the Tank!

I think that Grant likes the darker side of comedy, enjoying the characters sparking off of one another. Naylor's LH smacks a little like fan fiction to me, which is WEIRD seeing as it's alternative canon....

Saying that, I tend to base my fics around the style and approach of the books rather than the show - much darker and more dramatic-reaching in its extension of canon. Most likely cos I can't write comedy for toffee ;-) I wrote one episode for the ill-fated 'Red Dwarf Animated' series and I think I used up all my funny in one 20 minute episode!!!

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where at the point when Lister's preparing to 'meet' Death, Rimmer just says 'Don't go.' - THIS. I caught that too on my first re-reading this decade. (And the way it's read in the audiobook just kind of cements it.)

If the books are anything to go by, 'Last Human' was definitely my favourite over 'Backwards'. Although I've got a feeling that's a minority opinion - Having only listened to the audio of TLH at this point, I have an incomplete opinion. But I liked Backwards - I suspect it was for all the Ace stuff and Rimmer backstory. I have no idea why I like Ace so much - I used to couldn't stand the git. Maybe it's because I know Rimmer eventually BECOMES that and a big majority of us seem to think he'd do not only well in the role but better than his predecessors.

and the 'Well, we'll just find another Rimmer and Kryten!' would seem to undercut the whole point of the Ace vs. Rimmer subplot about the differences between universes - BUT, you have to admit even that point from "Dimension Jump" was jossed by SMAC, where it was basically immplied that every Rimmer ends up dying as Ace and every Ace has the same personality. And wasn't that particulary plot point all on Naylor?

Apparently he rewrote 'Pete' in S8 specifically because it needed a stronger 'Rimmer/Lister' spine, for example - And in the tradition of LOLcats, Grateful Fans Are Grateful ...

and then Rimmer's killed off almost purposefully to set up Lister and Kochanski's happy ending - You couldn't be more right *grumble*. However, the luck virus bit at the very end (it's on the audiobook too) halfway annoyed me because it was cutting into the solution my brain had come up with in between bad!Lister shooting real!Lister in the nuts with the radiation, and that point: I had begun to reason that Kochanski could have the children biologically with McGruder (provided that anti-aging gene wouldn't interfere with reproduction) and either Lister could raise them with her, or all three of them could be their parents. Of course, this would be sort of cruel on McGruder, since he'd stay perpetually young and have to watch his children out-age him ... but hey, it was a solution that didn't need the luck virus AND would keep Rimmers perpetual for a while.

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I really enjoyed far too much how happy Lister was to see nano-Rimmer come into the quarters in "Back in the Red." (That scene was also one of the inspirations for mine and Nat's long story we're working on finishing - it's in the way Rimmer approaches him when he walks in. Hopefully soon, you'll see what I mean *G*.) Incidentally, that season is also how I could actually accept an L/K/R OT3 either in fanfic or in the highly unlikely event it ever came to pass in canon. Once Kochanski was relieved of being the Rimmer stand-in, I appreciated her more (although I did like her in S7 despite Naylor's best effort to make her alt!Rimmer). For Naylor doing S8 himself, I thought it was terribly humorous, far more than S7. Seriously, I hated the tone in the latter part of S7.

I don't know if you can write comedy for toffee, but that Ace series is still in my mind even after all these weeks. In fact, when I did my musical Ace-fanmix thing earlier this spring, that story was why I chose a few of the songs I did. I confess I have a bit of a struggle with the end of the series as it stands, with Rimmer's memory and all that, but the entire series was just very good.

(Animated series? Episode? Was this a BBC show or a Web thing? Did you write an actual episode or a fanfic?)

Edited Date: 2010-06-26 08:19 pm (UTC)

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that Ace series is still in my mind even after all these weeks. In fact, when I did my musical Ace-fanmix thing earlier this spring, that story was why I chose a few of the songs I did.

You see that right there? That compliment made me smile so wide I think it might fall off my face ;-) Thank you, I'm honoured.

I confess I have a bit of a struggle with the end of the series as it stands, with Rimmer's memory and all that, but the entire series was just very good.

Cos of the 'rock falls, everyone dies' feel? ;-) Meh, I wanted Rimmer's Return to link canon to canon (VIII to BTE) and I didn't think he'd ever be the same again if he was still a hero of sorts, if that makes sense?

Plus...I wrote 'The Prophecy' and am currently chapter planning 'Cosmic Castaway' as a continuation of the Ace Chronicles - where the return of his memories spells a lot of trouble for all involved. I'm in the middle of writing Year 3 of the Ace Chronicles on ff.net (124 Days) - shall I let you know when it's posted in complete form on AO3?

(Animated series? Episode? Was this a BBC show or a Web thing? Did you write an actual episode or a fanfic?)

Haha! A tricky one to answer so bear with me. Started as a fan project but picked up quite a following (including Bobbly Llew himself who tweeted about it!) We got the nod from Grant Naylor productions to continue, as long as we could faithfully prove we weren't going to make any money from it.

Unfortunately, only a pilot and Christmas 2009 episode (which I was script consultant on) has been made so far. I wrote an episode called 'Juno' (hmm familiar? ;-D)

Here's the opening credit sequence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzNiK6t8pHU

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Edited Date: 2010-06-26 09:17 pm (UTC)

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If you're dealing with him actually getting his memories back, I can handle that. It just - I dunno, it had a "Bobby Ewing in the shower" feel to it, and I was all "Boo! He doesn't get to forget all that!" (Don't hit me! *G*) But then I read the story with the soothsayer in the marketplace after the series and it gave me all kinds of hope that it wasn't over. :-)

LOL! Now that did make me giggle. Gah, I can't win. ^__^ I get some feedback saying it was great I returned everything to canon and others who ask me to write follow-ups where he should remember. Hmmm... now I'm TOTALLY confused how I should leave the ending of Cosmic Castaway... ;-)

If you're actually posting, I would definitely take a link to that on ff.net if you wouldn't mind. (Yeah, I'm that eager to read more of it, LOL)

Of course! It's incomplete so as long as my slow writing processes don't piss you off then feel free to have a read: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5908333/1/124_Days I always appreciate your feedback (damn good writer as you are).

Yeah I'm a shameless self-promotion whore.

It's ok, I am too ;-) I was about to say submit it via the official site but it appears to have been removed. Hmm...might speak volumes about their decision on whether to continue right now! :-S

Oh, and the opening sequence is adorable! Who drew that??

Ahh now that would be the lovely Kevin - http://www.karcreat.com/

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You know how writing is. You can't please everyone and yourself simultaneously, LOL.

Maybe it's been removed because there are going to be more series with real actual actor bodies involved? Hee! (I'm of two minds about that - do I want more series? I kind of think I do. But I admit I'm trepidatious about watching beloved characters get long in the tooth IF their characterization doesn't progress along with that. Like the Rimmer in BTE was more like early-seasons Rimmer and less like post-Rimmerworld Rimmer. If that makes sense. Just IMO.)

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But I admit I'm trepidatious about watching beloved characters get long in the tooth IF their characterization doesn't progress along with that. Like the Rimmer in BTE was more like early-seasons Rimmer and less like post-Rimmerworld Rimmer. If that makes sense. Just IMO

Oh no, I agree whole-heartedly. I think I was slightly disappointed with BTE with the lack of comedy, and Rimmer's character was strangely jarring. Hey ho. Here's hoping they come up with a winner when they start filming...

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I like Ace in 'Backwards' a lot better than in 'Dimension Jump'.
I think it helps that there's more to show him as being heroic rather than telling us (the show's time limitations mean he ends up being the one who informs us of most of his attributes, which sort of works against say, his modesty. Things like the 'I'll be with the salt of the earth engineers rather than the admiral's party' are amusing, but they're pretty clunky exposition, and while obviously the viewer knows that it's aimed at them, the in-character reasons for bringing up that sort of stuff would seem more egotistical.)
I also find Rimmer and the crew to be slightly out of character in Dimension Jump - Rimmer's far more irritating than usual in that episode (quite a feat, lol) but the crew also do stuff they wouldn't normally (Cat being two-faced rather than openly rude to Rimmer sticks out, but also the whole fishing holiday thing.) whereas in Backwards, he seems more normal level annoying, heh.

BUT, you have to admit even that point from "Dimension Jump" was jossed by SMAC, where it was basically immplied that every Rimmer ends up dying as Ace and every Ace has the same personality. And wasn't that particulary plot point all on Naylor?

Oh, definitely, SMAC's got a ton of issues of its own! Both Naylor and Grant seemed to go back and forth on alt-personalities and whether to make a point with them (the various Aces - isn't there also a SMAC deleted scene with the Ace training 'our' Rimmer being one who left his crew and took the time drive in 'Out of Time'?, S7!Kochanski) or else just use them as replacements (book!Kochanskis, the end of 'Backwards', Nano!Rimmer - although, actually, I really like him, the consensus seems to be he doesn't match up to Holo!Rimmer, but I think that's a problem inherent with the entire show and it's style at that point rather than a specific characterisation issue. The ways he differs seem to be entirely in keeping with his changes in circumstances, and I think it's fascinating how he and Lister's relationship alters in that series.)

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nice-girls-play.livejournal.com

Why am I so amused that Rob has made Doug "the wife" (or ex-wife) in this context?

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nice-girls-play.livejournal.com

Naylor simply reuses Lister's lines from 'DNA' with her in 'Last Human' for example, and then Rimmer's killed off almost purposefully to set up Lister and Kochanski's happy ending.

Wow. Heteronormative ending is heteronormative. *kicks Naylor* This is making me not want to ever read Last Human -- while the gross stuff is really, *really* making me want to read Backwards!

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LOL, well, they're both worth a read, imho, if only as background info, so I'm glad!
Although I find Last Human to be slightly slashier than Backwards, maybe *because* of the heteronormativity. Protests too much and all that ;p I mean, there's no reason why Rimmer and Kochanski can't co-exist in Lister's life, but in both the later series of the show and the book Naylor takes pains to show his Kochanski as a replacement (either a Rimmer replacement for Lister, or a Lister replacement for Rimmer) and Kochanski and Lister's relationship as something that needs Rimmer out of the way to really thrive. IMHO, it's way gayer than not having her as an issue in the first place.

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Just so you know, I love you. LOL. What I enjoyed about TLH (which I am partly through now) is how Lister can't remember Cat, can't remember the woman who has sex with him, but he jumps right on Rimmer's name on first mention. (Not to mention his reaction of "oh; THAT Rimmer," which is funny on a couple of levels.)

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Heh, right back atcha!
Yeah, that was slashier than the show, and the show was pretty sweet with 'He's my best mate, isn't he?' (Not to mention the accuracy of that, paralleled with how he knows he can't play guitar.)

ROFL, and Kochanski has her 'haughty demeanour and officerial posture'. Remind you of anyone?

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Heh. To be fair, Doug did start early with the whole replacement business, in Balance of Power. No wonder Lister wasn't particularly upset by them nearly sleeping together in Cassandra; maybe he just saw it as advanced masturbation of a sort. ;-)

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I love Balance of Power. Possibly my favourite S1 episode. 'It's Kochanski's body, Kochanski's voice, I mean, what's the difference - come on!'

ROFL, the Cassandra plot is hilarious in retrospect. Poor Cassandra's all 'Hmm, I'll get Lister to kill Rimmer' (dead Rimmer + Murderer!Lister apparently being Lister's punishment) 'Which obviously, he'll do, being driven mad with jealousy!' When actually he just seems amused, even approving. I guess Rimmer and Kochanski getting it on is just step 1 in his masterplan for the ultimate threeway.

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Though, you gotta feel sorry for Kochanski in that one; I don't think she's as on-board with it as they are. When Lister says he's not going to shoot Rimmer, she goes, "Aww, but she promised!" *G*

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ROFL, well, it's always inexplicable how Kochanski can tolerate either of them, especially the rebooted version. Especially in S8, Lister's not the last man in the universe anymore, the one thing that tied them together. She'd probably agree, then leg it! (And get Kryten to tape them in case of future misbehaviour. ;)

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Well, we know KK chose both ways, in a sense, in Last Human, don't we? :-)

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dauphkantus.livejournal.com

*cuts in the long-dead conversation in the middle, since she'd got lost before the end*

Not to forget Ed Bye either! *toothy grin*

"I was so tempted to make them do it again." 8D (Blue Kiss special thingy)

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It's probably a good thing they didn't have one of those women directing them. "Fourth take! Christ Jesus, aren't you two EVER going to get this right??"

(The best thing about that scene isn't so much the kiss, since - well, let's face it, it looks kind of forced because - well, let's face it, it IS kind of forced. It's the two minutes prior of the flirting and the cooing and the coyness, NONE of which looks nearly as forced. *BG*)

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